Bandleader would like to hear your opinion

Jerry Malvern · From: Menifee, California, USA

I started a new band about one year ago. We have done 38 shows, which I think is pretty good here in So. Calif., while 2 of the 3 local bars went out of business around that time. I firmly think the reason for our success is the fact I have insisted that I have commited players. The music is that good. I asked them to let me know if work or family functions,vacations, or even working for another band, just let me know, I can and have booked the band around their scheduals.
In return, they get first call on all the gigs. Well, one member booked a gig on the same day that I just booked a gig. He did not tell me of this. So, I have two questions. One, is the way I am doing things fair? And, what would you do?

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Good players should not be "tied down" to one gig or one band. There should be plenty of notice given when a player can't make a job and a replacement found that is satisfactory with the leader.

The situation should never be such that if one person can't make the gig then the whole band does not work.

Stephan Franck · From: La Crescenta, California, USA

My 2 cents, having been in that situation...

There's no scarcety of great players in so-cal. Just look at it as an opportunity to expend your horizons, and try a new player for that one gig.

Maybe, the show won't be as tight, but the audience won't notice, and you'll have tried a new player, so on the whole, you're coming out ahead.

Best

(edited for spelling...)
s

[This message was edited by Stephan Franck on 06 May 2006 at 12:30 PM.]

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Really good musicians that are sober,dependable and know how to get out and mix and mingle in the crowd while on break are a plus. Just get a fill-in for the night and go on. This also allows you to get a chance to listen to some other players and it builds a list of pickers to call on in an emergency. No big deal. Sometimes that can make you appreciate what you do have.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Plus, it's a way to scout a replacement if the regular guy is thinking about moving on.
You never know. The best situations are those where bridges don't get burned.

Ron Kirby · From: Nashville TN

Jerry,, You said, the reason for your bands success was commited pickers. And you would book around the gigs they could not make. So you could KEEP YOUR SOUND, TOP NOTCH ! I hear you! But you also said, In return!! they get first call on all new gigs! So If one member booked a gig the same day you did!!! Its sounds like a loss of communication !! If Gigs are that tight ,communication is the answer ! To me, it sounds like you are a fair band leader, But there needs to be better communication, between you, and your pickers, More frequent phone calls , E- mails,, Ect,,

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

I am a stickler for good communication. I am not clear on your arrangement with the guys in the band----you presume them to be available for any date you book if they have not informed you of other bookings prior to this? If so, and if this is an understood and agreed upon arrangement then your guy has failed in his communications obligations. I have found that common decency, golden rule, and just plain good communications cover most anything. Yes--getting a stable of go-to guys is a good thing. Dependability is almost a co-equal of picking ability in my eyes. I hope that a straight talk with your guy can establish whether you guys are on the same page and if you can all live with agreed upon arrangements/commitments.

edited to say that my post was not in response to or in agreement with Ron---pure coincidence that we were having similar ideas at the same time. Smart guy, that Ron fella.

[This message was edited by Jon Light on 06 May 2006 at 01:45 PM.]

Ron Kirby · From: Nashville TN

Smart guy, that Jon Fella !!

Barry Blackwood · Posted 6 May 2006 1:16 pm

I just got out of L.A. after fifteen years. It's the bail capitol of the world. Get used to it ....

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Really great ideas here guys! It's really difficult to be a professional player and band leader. It's almost impossible to keep working, making top dollar and not have somebody affected negatively in your circle of associates. I think the Golden Rule definitely applies in these matters, although I also feel that everyone needs to understand what everyone really needs-bottom line-to keep on doing this questionable career. I'm fortunate that I play in a few bands where everybody knows what it means to be a professional. If a "career" gig, studio call, or stellar money is offered ,everyone will go to great lengths to help that player bow out gracefully (if a fair amount of notice is given of course) It really helps when friendship is first and foremost. I've been very lucky in that regard!

Jerry Malvern · From: Menifee, California, USA

All good advice so far. I would like to respond to Bill's post. Nobody is tied down in the band, short of the voluntary commitment each player agreed to. As far as the way I booked the band...if I was asked what nights you guys are available...I booked the known open dates, hence my request for the guys to inform me of their availability. If the booking call was for a specific date, hired guns where used if somebody was not available, so the band worked no matter what. When I worked my day job, my boss was a real stickler on absenteeism, notify him as soon as possible that I was not showing up to work, and I could imagine it going over like a lead ballon that my reason for not showing up is that I was going to work for somebody else for the day. But then again, these gigs are not mortgage sustaining.

Ian Finlay · From: Kenton, UK

My rule has always been that it's "first come" so if I don't confirm a gig with the player and he gets another offer, that's my issue to deal with. If he has to back out of a gig, he has to find a dep. We found some great players that way!

Ian

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

to me, it's sounds like the your band is way reasonable.
I think in this case it was just a mis cue..I also think that if you are committed to the players it would not be unreasonable for them to give you a quick nod before committing to another date..just to be certain of a NO CONFLICT situation.

I wouldn't do anything hasty here..maybe the next time you are all together, put out the request that they give you a shout before they commit to another date.....as that is what YOU DO with them...

Good folks respect each other...

it happens..we are players..or at least we resemble players...

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

If you have a song book with most of the chord charts
and a few arrangement notes in them,
getting a sub is not so much of an issue.
Even better if you have a cd with the bands sets live, or original versions.
A good player with the music in his head
and a clean chart can cover most anything.

In the NYC jazz world it is the player missing a gig that
gets his own sub, as long as the sub
passes muster with the band leader.
He walks in and reads the gig.

The sub also usually gets more calls if needed,
because he knows the band a bit.

2-3 HOURS notice for missing a gig is ok in this case.
But for a non-jazz gig 2 weeks is more aceptable.

If you book a gig and the player also books a gig before you called them,
like on the same day.
You have equal responsability to find a sub.
And the player can't be held responsable for walking out,
because HE didn't know yet he was not free to take another gig.

It IS a good idea to ask each player to ring or texto you BEFORE he commits to another gig.
In the age of endemic cellphones this shouldn't be too much to ask.

Yes it is great to have a commited band,
but great players will get many offers.
And since gig money is so short generally;
Hey they gotta eat same as anybody.

Our drummer " took a openeded vacation " this year,
possibly because the guy I am subing for on bass
did the same last june.
We did a $5,000+ new years gig, and he walked 2 weeks later... go figure.
I can't imagine walking from a gig that can get that much for 1 night...

We have had 2 sub drummers, but most of the time none.
I am a long term sub myself.

And the 12 year old son of the lead player
has been playing my Spanish "Cojon" flamenco drum box with us from time to time.

HE has TWO bands now at age 12,
Djembe drum in a duo and Cojon with us.

We are playing the same rooms without drums since January,
with the same pay and same audience reaction, sans drummer.

Happily enought as a trio we are singing and playing MUCH tighter,
and with the exceptions of a few songs dropped for really wanting drums,
playing everything at the same level.

And getting MORE compliments from people with real ears.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 May 2006 at 09:14 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

You sound like a reasonable bandleader.

When you worked your day job, you and your boss knew exactly what days you were going to be there-that is a steady job. You don't send in subs on a day gig.

Musical gigs are not like that. I had a gig tonight with a band leader that a week ago offered me $100 to play bass on a restaurant jazz gig. 4 days before the gig I got a call to play a solo guitar gig at a country club for $300--no brainer. I called the band leader up and told him what came in. He got a sub to do the gig he had called me for.

Also, you did not say how much these gigs pay. Even though you say you booked 38 jobs over the last year, if the jobs pay good-say around $250-350 a gig, then you might expect a good player to commit to your gigs on a regular basis. If your gigs are only paying $100 then that is only $3800 for a whole year. A good player would be hard to keep committed for that kind of money.

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 06 May 2006 at 09:01 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Of course inversely :

The lower the pay the worse the level of musicianship
and the greater difficulty of getting good players.

The better the pay, the better the musicianship,
but also these same are also more in demand.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Let me offer a different view.

I think the issue is whether there is "a cohesive band" or a "leader with a collection of musicians". In the latter case, exemplified by the NYC jazz scene David D. talks about, freely substituting is entirely reasonable and expected. I know many musicians who will only work this way, and that's fine as long as the arrangment is fully understood up front.

But if there is a cohesive band, it means that the band sound takes precedence, and a commitment is just that. IMO, it is a major problem if a serious up-and-coming band is constantly shifting critical personnel. Musicians have a right to decide what commitments they want to take on, but should be up front about what they won't commit to, and prepare to be replaced if that is not OK.

One needs to understand the value system of the people in a band. It is not automatic that money always comes first - people have different motivations to play. For some, money (or the promise of money and stardom) takes absolute precedence. For others, it's a combination of money and desire to play. For yet others, it's purely for the music - not all good musicians make a living at it. This stuff is all negotiable.

So I think it's reasonable to say "I want committed musicians" and enforce that. Of course, it can be difficult to find really good musicians who will actually do this. You must offer them the things they want and need in exchange for that commitment. If you can't do that, this discussion is just theoretical.

I have had to deal with this recently. Although my current band started as a fully cohesive band with me as a full-time member, I have moved to a loosely associated member who plays when it fits my schedule. They wanted me to commit to the possibility of full-time touring, but I said no. Those guys put everything aside for band rehearsals and gigs, and that is reasonable and necessary if they're going to get anywhere. If they ever get to the point where they have a looming need for a full-time touring steel player, everything is up front - either I fully commit or they need to find someone who will do it. That's fine. Ron and Jon are right - clear communication is the key. The problems occur when people try to play both ends against the middle.

So, to me, there is no "correct" answer here - it depends on the desires and goals of the band and players.

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

I hate playing with subs in my band. It is never as much fun, and always makes me nervous. The show as they say, must go on. As long as I have 2 wks. notice, I can get a sub.Two former subs are in my band fulltime now. JP

Jerry Malvern · From: Menifee, California, USA

Dave, I realy like your reply. The player in question started up his classic rock band again, so your comment on playing both ends against the middle is accurate. I have 3 players ready to take his place, so once ya got a paying band working, players do come out of the woodwork. I will use them as hired guns for a while, just to make sure we are on the same page.

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

Buck Reid · From: Nashville,TN

Barry,
I think Nashville might be a close second!

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Not sure what he knows, he's Thai, and we could NEVER
know what's going in his head.

For us farangs (foriegners) time is running out or not infinite, for Thai's time IS infinte, so why is tomorrow more important than today.
i.e little forward outlook as part of the culture.
In many ways a big part of it's charm here.

Officially he is taking "a vacation" after 8.5 years.
But then again it could be forever,
because he wouldn't want the other guys to lose face,
by being told he quits... so he says nothing..

After 8 years with him they have no clue...

For me walking from a gig this long term making this kind of money is not logical...
Most players here get $5 and change a night...
But I'm from Boston, not Nakon Rachisima..

Me I am officially a sub even at 8 months,
but I will get plenty of notice when the lead players twin brother
finally gets set to come back.
He is backstopping another family member in
a lable signed gig in Australia.

We have recording drummers available,
and the orginal guy doesn't like recording.

But the young guy played cojon really well last night,
I see him eventually being the drummer full time, in a year or two.
A real natural player. His father's son for sure.

I plan on having another band in the future, one with me playing steel most of the time,
so it's win/win in the long run.

Plus I start construction on a home and BIG studio this week.
I will have no problem finding great players in this scenario.
If there are several doing other acts,
but broken-in for my project I will have no problem.

One of the other local acts here
is more of a collective than a band,
lots of different local players come in on any given night.
yet they sound pretty good most nights.

I agree having a regular tight crew can be more fun,
or at least easier to play with.
But then again, as a jazz player,
I like the unknown element as part of the music.

Improvisation is more work,
but can bring great rewards too.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 07 May 2006 at 07:49 PM.]

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 07 May 2006 at 07:52 PM.]

Mike Winter · From: Portland, OR

Thought I'd toss this in here. Our band uses a free online calendar:
http://www.bandcal.net/index.html

This has been a huge help. We all have a user name and a password...when any one of us is NOT available, we put it on the calendar. That way, it's all agreed that if the calendar is open on a given date, then it an open date as far as booking a gig is concerned. It's not foolproof, but it sure beats calling around trying to see if everyone is available.

------------------
Mike
------------------
Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Great idea.
Now if each player had a portable phone email account,
the calander could notify them of an update,
like a new gig.

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