How Many Jazzplayers

Henry · Post by **Henry** » 1 Jun 2003 3:32 am

How many JAZZPLAYERS (on steel)do we have to day,
We had&have GIANTS ao;CurleyChalker ,Julian Tharp,Maurice Anderson,Doug Jernigan,
Buddy Emmons,,,,,,,,,,,?

How many did make records and played on Jazzfestivals. like we have overhere in EUROPE
[This message was edited by Henry on 04 January 2004 at 08:07 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Jun 2003 4:35 am

In a word, NONE
Unless you count Dave Easley who appears as a sideman on some Brian Blade Blue Note projects. Other than that, not much 'legitimate' -- most jazz heads have no clue what a steel guitar sounds like.

Buddy Emmons' 'Steel Guitar Jazz' album from the 60s used legit NYC jazz guys, but the album wasn't produced or distributed by a jazz label.

I'm not aware of Chalker or anyone else playing Newport or the other major jazz festivals.

I agree that some steel players are excellent jazz practitioners, but nobody seems to call Jernigan or Emmons or Franklin when they're doing a new project. It's a pity, but how many bebop sax players do you hear on country recordings?

I believe it's the jazz world's loss.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 1 Jun 2003 5:53 am

The guys I know that pick up work at jazz fests are Gib Wharton, Chuck Campbell , Lonnie Bennet, Greg Leisz. The only guy on that list that you could call a real jazz player would be Gib.

There are others but I don't have first hand information about them.

Larry,
I live in a jazz town and the jazz players around here are way into the steel. For the most part I am welcomed by them and only limited by my ability.

Bob

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Jun 2003 8:46 am

That's great news, Bob.
With guys like you and Jeff and the folks you mentioned increasing visibility, the scene -- particularly in NYC -- appears to be more receptive than perhaps in the past. Thanks for the info. Which festivals? With which artists?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 June 2003 at 09:47 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 1 Jun 2003 9:22 am

I am not in the same league with the guys above.
But I am happy that my first public performance on PSG was a jazz gig and not blues or country... nothing against those styles.
It wasn't a whole night, but what I did play was effective and got a very good response from audience and players.

I got the Sho-Bud to add to my jazz derived compositons,
and ALSO to play in a little country band.. but that was secondary.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 01 June 2003 at 02:56 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 1 Jun 2003 9:28 am

I work with:
JC Hopkins biggish band on occasion.
Nora Jones (before the big bang happened)
J. Walter Hawks
The Old Rugged Sauce (Sinatra type tunes played by and for very drunk people)
The Moonlighters ( mostly Hawaiian with a bunch of Fats Waller period jazz tunes)

I play with new music improv groups and that gets lumped into jazz sorta.

Then there are some more advanced modal jazz groups that want me to play but I'm holding off till I have a better grip on early jazz. Another year of steady early jazz gigs and I should be ready.

One thing is that often the heavy jazz guys want me to play relatively simple melodic lines and color tones on my
E9 neck. There can be too many guys playing too many notes on the bandstand already. That may change as I get a better handle on the idiom though.

I'm don't think I'm doing much of anything for the instrument when you get down to it. I just like to play.

There are a few pro jazz guitar players in NYC that are picking up lap steel with a c6 tuning and bringing it on dates. Once they figure out how to make the thing sound good they will be making some big waves.

If somebody like Gary Carpenter or Buck Reid made the move to NYC they would be the darlings of the jazz scene here in days. They would also need to cut back on things like food and shelter for a couple years.

Does Buck's gig with Lyle's big band count as jazz in this thread ?

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 01 June 2003 at 10:34 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 1 Jun 2003 2:00 pm

In NYC I had Dan Hovey play some C6 stuff for me a few years back. A fine player and a solid jazz guitarist too.
Anybody know him there? Bob?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 1 Jun 2003 3:03 pm

I know that Bob Taillefer has played some of the major jazz festivals.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 1 Jun 2003 4:49 pm

Dan Hovey is doing great these days. He mostly playing guitar. He brings the lap along as a double sometimes.

He plays with The Western Caravan at the rodeo bar when he is available. John Widgren hold the steel chair at that gig and they play plenty of swing.

Another guy that is busy playing with the jazz big boys is Dan Tyack out in Seattle.

Bob

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 Jun 2003 7:43 am

Bob, if you see Dan say hi for me.
And get me his address I owe him a cd.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 June 2003 at 08:43 AM.]

Al Vescovo · Post by **Al Vescovo** » 2 Jun 2003 12:05 pm

I think Dr. Hugh Jeffreys is probably one of the most progressive jazz steel guitar players around. I've played jazz at the Sacremento Jazz Festival, with the "Big Band Alumni", and every thursday night at Casey's in Canoga Park, CA. I'll be leaving for Japan on June 17th till July 14th with the Billy Vaughn Orchestra for a concert tour. I have a couple of jazz type solos on the show, although a lot of the theme is Hawaiian. Jazz is great on the Steel Guitar, just ask Doug Jernigan, Mike Smith and Koos Biel. I hope for the best of everything, for all Steel Guitar "players", and because of the dedication it takes to play it, they deserve it. Al

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 2 Jun 2003 1:23 pm

I play lap steel in a band called Go Van Gogh here in San Francisco with a lineup of sax, guitar, bass and drums, but I don't know if you'd call it jazz or not. It's more like instrumental rock originals.
We certainly have our jazz moments, but not because of my playing.

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars
[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 02 June 2003 at 02:43 PM.]

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 2 Jun 2003 2:19 pm

Albert: Thank you for thinking of me and good luck on your tour. Yes, I've been making the jazz scene around Memphis for a long time. There were some Kool Kats aboard the ship last Month on the San Juan--Barbadoes--Aruba tour. The ship really swung in the Onyx Lounge. I really enjoyed working with those guys. --HJ

Mike Marchelya · Post by **Mike Marchelya** » 3 Jun 2003 9:38 am

Henry, IMO, the big problem with jazz and steel is the voicing of the instrument. Operationally, it offers tremendous possibilities for the jazz player, but I think the inherent tonality prevents a lot of players from playing one or including one in the ensemble. Considering those limitations, I'm amazed and truly impressed when players get anything close to good jazz sounds out of the things.

After a year of trying and meanwhile listening carefully to every jazz steel CD, tape, record and link I could find, I put the steel up for sale and went back to the archtop. When a builder manages to get away from the traditional voicing and creates something I find more suited to jazz, I'll reconsider the steel. Your mileage may vary.

Dirk B · Post by **Dirk B** » 3 Jun 2003 10:04 am

Mike,
I'm intriqued by your point, but what do you mean by "inherent tonality"?

Are you trying to say that the steel tone is too whiny or something along those lines? Do you think a warmer tone (like from an old MSA) is more suited to jazz? And if we're talking about a solo instrument that plays above the rhythm section, why should the tone matter as long as it's pleasing (whatever that means)? Many instruments with a wide range of tonality (from fiddle & soprano sax to trombone) are suitable jazz solo instruments.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'd just like you to clarify it a bit -- ?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 3 Jun 2003 1:12 pm

Mike,
I am disagreeing with you. I have never had a problem working with jazz players because of the way the steel is built. I can make it sound any way I want. My musical ability and personal limitations are big issues but it is not the instrument.

Bob

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Jun 2003 1:41 pm

By voicing I take it as the tuning of the instrument.
Which to some extent is dictatede by how hard
you can tension the strings. But as far as tamber or tone I see no incompatability.

Except for those hard core traditionalist jazzers who don't like anything not
in the tradtional make up of a jazz band..as they see it.

I got a PSG exactly because I heard it's sound in my jazz derived music and couldn't get it any other way. Even knowing it would be a long time before I played it the way I hear it in the mix in my head. It actually has been faster than I expected.

Getting close to good jazz sounds... LOL
and what exactly is that.

Many hated lead guitarists for a long time..
It's a rythm instrument, how DARE they.
Charlie Christian was boo'ed for playing electric a few times.
Some thought you can't play jazz except on a L-7. ES-175 or ES-335.. tell that to Les Paul.

If you use it for what it CAN do, and not be mislead by some arbitrary expectations, it will serve you well.
If you try to force it into something it's not it won't.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 June 2003 at 02:45 PM.]

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 3 Jun 2003 2:10 pm

For Mike in Denver: I agree. That's why many years ago I threw away my fingerpicks, and began to learn how to play with all five. I play 5 parts with closed (tight) voicings, or spread my fingers to get the big piano voicings. In my last album, I utilized my steel in many ways: 5 parts closed with vibes on top and elec. guitar 8vb, 5 parts under a string ensemble, single string with strings on top, 5 parts with flute on top and clarinet on bottom, etc.,etc. I think that the 'common' tone one hears today is the result of the player picking on top of the pickup, or close to it; also the high treble which I never use. HJ

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 3 Jun 2003 8:38 pm

To get back to the original issue, I have been lucky enough to play with some great players who are considered 'jazz' (e.g. Bill Frisell and the sax player Skerik). I don't consider myself a jazz player, although neither does Buddy Emmons, which puts me in some pretty great company.

Currently I play with a few groups that do 'jazz': Opera Jupiter, a group that doesn everything from Schubert to Ellington. Jive Turkey, a funky group that does some standards, and my own group the Unsanctified Gospel Revival, which does a number of tunes that fit in the intersection of jazz and gospel.

I'd love to play great on standard jazz changes, but obviously not enough, because I'm not there yet. I am currently working on playing half as good as Aretha Franklin sings, maybe when I'm there I'll work on the standards some more.

Even though I am a mediocre jazz player, I concur with Bob Hoffnar that the jazz players out there that I play with love the pedal steel, and whatever failures I have are totally due to my inadequacies as a player, not due to any predjudice against the instrument.

In terms of the 'voicing' issue, if this is refering to the tone thing, I tend to agree that the standard C6th tone that you might hear at a convention does tend to get in the way in a lot of jazz contexts. But this isn't in any way a limitation of the instrument. Whatever my limitations as a jazz player in terms of chops, I usually can come up with a tone that kills in a jazz context. This is really useful if you can't hang with the sax player......

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www.tyack.com

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 3 Jun 2003 9:00 pm

A couple of useful tips for players who don't have the chops to go head to head with the sax player who thinks he is John Coltrane reincarnated (or the guitar player who has learned way too many transcriptions of Pat Martino solos).

Some of the best jazz solos of all time don't involve a lot of notes. Some great players to listen to are Johnny Hodges (his solos are written for steel guitar), Wes Montogomery, and my favorite slacker, Miles Davis.

The steel has an amazing ability to play vocal lines. Listen to the great jazz singers (e.g. BIlly Holiday) and cop their feel.

If you can't dazzle them with gnat notes, kill them with a huge tone. Don't be afraid to go beyond the standard steel sounds.

Go for the blues/gospel side of jazz rather than the technical. If you play a simple but soulful solo (with a big fat non-country sound) with the bends that the guitar players only wish they could play, you will impress them a lot more than playing a bunch of Buddy Emmons or Paul Franklin licks.

Listen to the Sacred Steel Masters such as Chuck and Darrick Campbell and hear how they use a wah to further the expressiveness of the steel. This can sound increadible on jazz styles from really traditional to funk.

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www.tyack.com

Mike Marchelya · Post by **Mike Marchelya** » 3 Jun 2003 9:37 pm

Dirk to answer your question, I guess the older MSA sound would be more in the direction. I'd like more of a woody or breathy sound than what I've heard. Again, don't get me wrong guys. I'm a big fan of the steel especially in the jazz context. Even working with instruments designed to deliver the "traditional" sound it works well. It's just not for me. I'd really love for a steel builder to really go "outside the box" and start from scratch. But it's a niche instrument and anything with other than traditional sound would be a big and very expensive gamble.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 3 Jun 2003 10:00 pm

Mike,

If you're looking for a traditional jazz guitar sound you are absolutely right that it is really hard to get that on a pedal steel. The closest I have heard is on my C6th pedabro, which can get an amplified archtop type of sound electrically (helped by the fact that the pickup is about a foot in front of the bridge).

However, there are a lot of great jazz sounds available on the pedal steel, but it's a different animal than a guitar. Kind of like the difference between an acoustic piano and a B3. Both are valid jazz instruments, they just are very different.

Bob Watson · Post by **Bob Watson** » 4 Jun 2003 12:05 am

The first time I heard Doug Jernigan play Jazz on the album "Uptown to Country" I was greatly impressed with the mellow sound of the chords. I remember listening to a friend of mine that had an old MSA Sidekick single neck E9 and thinking that a 13th chord or a Major 7th chord on this beginners steel sounded as cool if not cooler than on an Archtop Spanish Style Guitar. IMHO, chords seem to "shimmer" more on a psg. Jazz standards played in a chord melody voice leading type style to me sound better than on an archtop. Although I have never really become a Jazz Steel Player, the observations I mentioned above greatly influenced my decision to become a Pedal Steel Guitar Player. I think that David L. Donald's last post on this subject said it all.[This message was edited by Bob Watson on 04 June 2003 at 01:07 AM.]

Dirk B · Post by **Dirk B** » 4 Jun 2003 9:15 am

I agree that the market demand may keep manufacturers from developing guitars with a warmer jazz-like tone. But just the same I'd say Doug's tone on "Jazz by Jernigan" and BE's tone on the Black Album are pretty dagone full & warm, so it can be done.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Jun 2003 12:54 pm

I just listened to most of Murph.
If this isn't a great jazz tone I don't know what the concept is. Just lovely work.
And that Bigsby clone of Chas's is great sounding.