Non Smoking Bars

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 16 Feb 2006 8:42 am

I'm not big on there being laws about everything but I'm glad there is no smoking in bars in NY. It makes it easyer for me not to smoke. Tobacco is a tough addiction to break. I play in one bar band where the drummer sneaks cigs on stage and leaves them burning inbetween times he is yelling into the PA for the bartender to stop what she is doing and bring him more beer. The smoke even at that level is toxic feeling.

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Bob
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Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 16 Feb 2006 11:26 am

Yeah-I guess if someone knows one person that has lived to at least 95 as a smoker, that completely negates all scientific evidence to the contrary...And then it becomes a "krack" (how about "crock").

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Mark

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Feb 2006 12:00 pm

Norway introduced a total ban on smoking in bars, pubs and restaurants in June '04, and I was heavily opposed to it at that time.
Now, a year and a half later, I have to admit that it has worked out pretty okay, and most smokers agree.
Pub owners have been very innovative in coming up with solutions that's acceptable to everyone, and I have to say - as an on/off smoker - that it feels good to perform in a smoke free environment, or just enjoy a cold beer (or five...). And this is in a country with a pretty unforgiving winter climate..

The problem I still have with the issue, is the general tendency to classify smokers as a sort of "2nd grade" people. There has been plenty of cases where this whole smoke-ban thing has gone way too far, like trying to deny social workers the right to have a cigarette during their work time, because of the smell from their clothes. That's just ridiculous,- there are many other "personal odors" I could think of that's a lot worse than that of cigarettes...

Steinar

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[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 16 February 2006 at 12:01 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 16 Feb 2006 12:47 pm

I'm absolutely with Bob H. about not liking a bunch of laws for everything. I agree we have way too many "Big Brother tries to protect John Q. Citizen from himself" laws. I agree with Steinar that some people have turned the "offensive odor" thing into a fetish. Show me a way for non-smokers to be able to go into public places and not be choked out by tobacco smoke, I'll say OK, and I think most other people will also.

But it is just not right to tell people that they can't come into a public place, or work in a workplace, simply because they can't handle toxic levels of smoke. The rights of smokers stop exactly at the point where they seriously infringe on others rights. IMO.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 16 Feb 2006 12:49 pm

"other "personal odors" I could think of that's a lot worse than that of cigarettes..."
Steiner buddy, you know you and I are simpatico on almost everything, but not this. there is no worse odor than cigarette smoke. I can't go near a smoker.

the other day I got a new amp. the guy who put it together must have been a smoker because the packing materials made my entire house reek of smoke to the point where nobody could breath. And that is after being in a Fedex truck for a week.

Smokers have absolutely no idea how bad they smell.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Feb 2006 1:00 pm

Bill,- I know people who starts to vomit from the smell of a day-old heavy garlic and onion spiced dinner,- should garlic eaters be denied their favorite food during weekdays?

Steinar

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Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 16 Feb 2006 1:28 pm

Anyone ever dies from second-hand garlic?

Steiner - that one was not even close to being relevant.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Feb 2006 2:45 pm

Jim, you missed my point completely. Go back and read my earlier post and you will see that what I'm referring to is that in some professions, like social workers for example, it has been attempted to deny workers having a smoke break during worktime because clients/customers might be offended by the smell.

I don't mind disagreements but I prefer if people bother to read an argument before they disagree.

Just to make it even easier, you won't even need to scroll up and look for my post, here's what I wrote:

The problem I still have with the issue, is the general tendency to classify smokers as a sort of "2nd grade" people. There has been plenty of cases where this whole smoke-ban thing has gone way too far, like trying to deny social workers the right to have a cigarette during their work time, because of the smell from their clothes. That's just ridiculous,- there are many other "personal odors" I could think of that's a lot worse than that of cigarettes...

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 16 February 2006 at 02:47 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 16 Feb 2006 3:20 pm

Steiner - I read the earlier post and didn't miss a thing.I just think you're reaching way too far trying to make a comparison of issues that are unrelated.

Garlic may have an offensive smell.

Smoke has may have an offensive smell but *absolutely* poses a health risk - even residual smell.

No comparison.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 16 Feb 2006 3:21 pm

Steiner,

First, I think you mean Second Class people, not second grade people.

I don't know about Norway, but here in New York, we have a high proportion of people with Asthma in the poorer neighborhoods. this is a result of bus fumes and general environmental conditions. To allow Social Workers here to reak of smoke when they are administring to the poor who may have an attack set off by the smoke fumes emminating from their clothes would be the hight of cruelty,in my opinion. so I can see why the law was passed.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Feb 2006 4:13 pm

Jim,- I was comparing the smell of smoke from somebody's breath, or hair, whatever, with the smell of garlic, or whatever. I believe the 'offense factor' can be pretty much the same, depending on who you ask.

Bill, if somebody goes to work at 8 in the morning, newly showered and with clean clothes (no 'breakfast cigarette'), then has a cigarette outside during luch break - there's no way anybody's gonna get an asthma attack because of that little hint of tobacco smell that might be left in his/her clothes or breath when he visits them one hour later.

There's a difference between reaking of smoke from clothes that's been exposed to smoke over days (I agree, that's a horrible smell) and whatever's left from one cigarette. And - if someone really was that sensitive - I believe, from my own previous experience as a social worker, that the ones visiting them would take responsibility for that and not smoke before visiting, just like most people stopped smoking when they're around children a long time ago.

No offense Bill, but you do sound like one of those ex-smokers who turn completely and becomes totally fanatics. And this is coming from an ex-smoker (still struggling) who starts every day with a deep breath of asthma medicine.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 16 Feb 2006 5:12 pm

I guess we better bring back "Smoke, Smoke, Smoke" and sing it, this time when it comes around on the guitar, with feeeeeeling [as Arlo aptly put it].

I do like the fact that bars are getting better at cleaning up the air. And I am no smoker, but "What's a Honky-Tonk without the reek of tobbacco". Especially cigars and pipes?"

Here's the latest. Someone is going to come up wiith a dual ventilation system, where fresh air is constasntly being introduced along with non-toxic artificial cigar and pipe smoke - why not? Could give new meaning to aromatherapy.

Anyway, good friend Bobby McGovern, who owns "Packards" in Northampton, MA, continues to buck Northampton's city-wide smoking ban and pays a monthly non-compliance fine. He claims about 80% of his business is derived from smokers. So he had countless hearings with the 'city' and they wouldn't budge. So Bob put up very noticeable signs on all entrance/exit doors of "Packards" warning all who enter will be coming into a smoking establishment. And he still maintains non-smoking areas within the joint.

I think if you fairly warn people about what kind of premise they're about to enter, that should cover it.

I've spent many, many hours in Packards. They have state-of-the-art-ventilation and smoke eaters. I never thought the place was that smokey, as places I've played in the past. Sure, if you're sitting right next to someone smoking, well, what do you expect?

I just think there's room enough for each side, without blowing a lot of hemmaroids over the issue.[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 16 February 2006 at 05:16 PM.]

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 16 Feb 2006 5:35 pm

" ex-smokers who turn completely and becomes totally fanatics. "

Actually I'm one of those ex-smoker's who at 21 had to watch his father die an agonizing death over the course of year as a result of smoking, who suffers daily from asthma as a result of growing up in a house filled with secondary smoke,and who literally can't breath around second hand smoke.

So if I sound blunt, I've earned the right.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 16 Feb 2006 8:07 pm

Chip said: "I think if you fairly warn people about what kind of premise they're about to enter, that should cover it."

What about the workers? We've been over this...

-Travis

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 16 Feb 2006 8:25 pm

Oh yeah, and still waiting for an answer, Damir...

-Travis

P.S. Can't you find anything to support your opinion on Google somewhere? Try the notoriously bad tobacco industry funded site junkscience.com, for example--you'll probably find it comforting to read somebody who agrees with you. There's also lots of stuff on there "debunking" global warming, which I've no doubt you also don't believe in. Enjoy!

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 16 February 2006 at 08:28 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 17 Feb 2006 6:04 am

Oh yeah, and still waiting for an answer, Damir...

I really don't see a reason to make this a personal issue.
Myself, I never thought about civil liberties from the perspective of someone who migrated from a communist country.

Bars; smoking; drinking. The more you drink, the more you smoke; the more you smoke, etc....
It takes a while to settle the issue.

It's funny, seeing an old movie, where two army doctors join each other in the corridor of a hospital; one offers the other a cigarette, and they discuss the health of a patient.

Second-hand garlic: rotflmao.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 17 Feb 2006 6:07 am

For a dose of irony, look outside any hospital and count the amount of overweight smokers wearing hospital worker's garb...

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Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 17 Feb 2006 7:08 am

Second-hand garlic: rotflmao.

Didn't one of the founding members of Spinal Tap choke on somebody else's vomit?

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

John Ummel · Post by **John Ummel** » 17 Feb 2006 7:17 am

The passion with which smokers argue for their right to poison themselves(& others!) convinces me only of how terribly addicting nictotine is. Glad I never took it up. I held my Dad's hand as he took his last breath dying from emphysema. My sister and I had pleaded for years for him to quit smoking.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 18 Feb 2006 12:12 am

I really don't see a reason to make this a personal issue.

Well, that's true. I apologise, Damir.

-Travis

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 18 Feb 2006 7:18 am

This is a rather delicate subject, but if I may contribute...smokings' effect on the cardiovascular system for me was dramatic. I haven't smoked in about 40 years but when I did it affected my sex life. I'll never forget a very beautiful girl's remark to me one night, at one point I decided to light up and relax and she said, "now here comes a long conversation". Needless to say that "blow" to my ego was profound. For me the ideal time of day to put "them" down was after lunch; I didn't throw my cigarettes away but I stored them in the closet. I figured this would lessen the stress of doing away with my "old friend". For years the impulse was with me but diminished with time. I had a few failed attempts before. Another thing, I also remembered that after a few days away from smoking and starting again, the taste and the smoke would gag me. The psychological and physical dependence for me was really strong. I had started smoking when I was a teenager, so that made the effort a lot more work. I am thoroughly convinced that if I had not quit I would probably be dead or extremely impaired today. I can only speak for myself. Maybe someone can use this information.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 18 Feb 2006 7:31 am

For me I'm glad that less people smoke including myself. I've come to the conclusion that people don't smoke because they like it but because they are addicted to it like a junky wants his smack. So I gave up cigarettes but will always be a nicotine junky. That's the way it is period. The doctor told me a couple of weeks ago that I should only drink one cup of coffee a day as it has about the same affects as smoking. Smoking wasn't too hard to quit but now I'm a true caffiene junky too so I guess next we'll have the government shutting down Starbucks. Since you can smell it when you walk past, does that make it the same as cigarettes? You all have fun with this. I think I'm done at least for now.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 18 Feb 2006 9:57 am

I'm a true caffiene junky

Frank, the word is "caffiend."

I'm one too.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 18 Feb 2006 1:50 pm

Think I'll go by Starbucks and get some second-hand coffee.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 19 Feb 2006 3:34 pm

first of all I was rised in the family of smokers,my dad,mom,grandma and grandpa all smoked and nobody died because of that.Me and my sister should be dead long time ago if the second smoke theory is true.And I`m a smoker,not heavy but 3-4 cigarettes a day and there is apsolutly nothing wrong with my lungs.
second of all,next time you guys who hate smokers,pay attention when you`re stuck in the morning trafic surraunded with hundreds of cars in the industrial neighbourhod with big old chimneys puffing big old clouds of dust and smoke, I`m sure the last thing you should be woried about is the guy with a cigarette it the local bar.
Not even going to start talking about food we eat,all the chemicals and pesticides and other chemical stuff that our food is filled with.
Think about second hand smoking while driving up hill in the cloud of black smog behind the trucktor trailer.
To make myself clear,I`am not saying smoking is good,it`s not and if you don`t smoke,great.Smoking is just only little part of the whole nasty picture.
and third of all,why do people on Tibet live to be 100 years old and they drink and smoke all day long?
Like I said,smoking is nasty habit and the best thing is to quit if you can,but me..I`m more woried about many other things going on in this world than some dude at the bar with his cigarette.

btw.you think milk we drink is all that beter thank cigarettes.. www.rense.com/general26/milk.htm

and don`t forget to cancel your cell phone service..
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"The risk is extremely high," declares Dr. Cherry. "There are 66 epidemiological studies showing that electromagnetic radiation across the spectrum increase brain tumors in human populations. Two of those studies are for particular brain tumors from cell phones."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and many many more other things on this world...but yes,I agree,smoking is bad

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
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[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 19 February 2006 at 04:00 PM.]