Credentials............

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 10 Jan 2006 5:00 pm

When posts are made here on the Forum, wouldn't it be nice to be able to ascertain for one's own satisfaction whether the poster is a 3-week newbie steel player; a 40 year vet of rock & roll history and has never played anything but a Fender Strat or
drums; or, has never played anything more complicated than a Victrola?
Saying "Who is the best" and who played the most wonderful passage and/or whatever.
Some actually still believe that "red" guitars sound better than black Mica models.
How about that? Quite often, as a side note, these same fellows will then ask which is better, plastic or metal finger picks and/or to use no picks at all, unless you use four finger picks.
JUST CURSIOUS. Not a condemnation of anyone. All posts are surely welcome here as long as they are legitimate, right?

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 10 Jan 2006 5:17 pm

OK, Ray, I'll go first. Halfway decent guitar player, 50 yrs. old, been playing guitar since I was a kid. Been playing dobro for about 20-some years, and took up pedal steel a couple of years ago. SO, I don't have the steel credibility of some guys here, but I do have a good bit of musical knowledge, and tons of scars from playing road gigs for years!

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 10 Jan 2006 5:45 pm

Steel players I have met or been around have always had a warped sense of humor. I think you have to read between the lines in some of the postings.

Mark Herrick · Post by **Mark Herrick** » 10 Jan 2006 5:55 pm

This is a true story:

When I lived in New York City and first got a steel guitar, I posted a note looking for a teacher. (I believe it may have even been on the old AOL Forum.)

I got an e-mail from Buddy Cage. Well, it had been years since I had listened to NRPS and the name didn't click. (I may have even seen them live once, but some of the concerts from that period are a little hard to remember...)

So I called him up. Said hello. Thanked him for responding. Told him I had this steel guitar, didn't know much about it and wanted to take some lessons...

Then I asked him what he considered his qualifications for teaching...

There was a pause, then he said, "You don't know who I am, do you?"

Immediately realizing I had probably just committed some incredible faux pas I said, "Uh, I got a feeling you're getting ready to tell me..."

It kind of went downhill from there, but in a good natured way...

(Sorry Buddy!)

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Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 10 Jan 2006 6:12 pm

All right Ray,,don't know what direction we're going here, but here goes. At 58 yrs. old I've been playing at the steel going on 10 yrs. Still just a hack player, but enjoy what I do. Been playing bass, and 6 string since my teens, and rate my playing as "solid" nothing fancy, my theory is limited, but not completly non existent. During the 70's worked full time as a gigging club player.
Since then I've been a week-end picker and still am. Some months I play every week-end, some less, you know how it goes!
I may not be the best, or the most knowlegable, but I've paid some pretty high dues to get where I'm at, but I don't think I'd trade any of it!
Larry

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Emmons S/D-10, 3/5, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 10 Jan 2006 6:16 pm

Personally I don't think credentials mean too much in all cases... Of course credentials like PF's or BE's are obvious... but I've talked with so many musicians who go on and on about the stars they've played with, how they've played for 30 years etc.... so by then you think they must be great musicians and then when you hear them play, they're not what you were led to believe. I've heard some 2-year newbies here who play better than many long-timers. Not that that's always the case, but it can be.

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 10 Jan 2006 8:16 pm

What Jim said.

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 Jan 2006 8:43 pm

Well, Jim's right. Nevertheless, experience is of some interest. Maybe there could be a voluntary line for steel guitar and other musical experience in the profile. Don't know if the Infopop software allows adding a line there. I'm not sure what the point of listing our experience in this thread would be. After a few dozen guys list there experience here, who's gonna remember that 6 mos. from now when you see one of their names in a thread?

Justin Griffith · Post by **Justin Griffith** » 10 Jan 2006 10:20 pm

I am a somewhat newbie to steel.(3 yrs) and I don't care about anyone's credentials so as long as they can answer my question. I have never had any trouble getting my questions answered. I think players of any skill level can contibute to this wonderful forum. Even I have been able to help some folks out, and I'll tell you there is no greater feeling than helping others.
Please don't segregate the forum.
Justin

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Justin Griffith
D-10 Blanton 8X4,Sho-Bud Professional D-10 8X4 Gooodrich L-10K, Matchbox, Small cab. Session 500, Evans FET 500LV, Walker seat

Harvey Reams · Post by **Harvey Reams** » 10 Jan 2006 11:10 pm

well, this my frist post on the forum so i guess I'm a new newbie.
I'm a 56 year old guitar player that started playing jazz, then on to other things....had my left hand smashed in ny car one even ( hit by a drunk driver ), so now i play a fender 8 string lap in a C6 tuning. I love it....mext I'm looking for a good pedal to get started on. I have been reading the forum for months and haved learned a lot. oh, by the way, I still play the guitar, just with a lot more pain
Harvey

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Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 10 Jan 2006 11:50 pm

I could care less about credentials. If thats what I am supposed to judge any of you by, then shame on me. Not that I don't place certain players in my own definition of "legendary" status, but I think anybody who has the passion and the desire can learn to make great music. To dismiss a beginner may be a huge mistake. Lloyd Green and Buddy Emmons were once beginners too. [This message was edited by Al Carmichael on 10 January 2006 at 11:51 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Jan 2006 1:41 am

I am a newbie..compared to many..

at 57, I've been playing Guitars, yes them dreaded Strats, 335's , Tele's, Tennesseans and Guilds since the 60's, still play the Tele's and Strats..no Marshal amps though..started playing gigs when I was 13 or 14, maybe 15.. something like that..Started playing Steel in the early 70's and did double duty on gigs in the bands ( Tele and Steel) from around 75 or so to ..well..still am....

I don't claim to be a music scholar, I don't claim to be able to play like Buddy, Loyd , Paul , Doug or Bobbe...etc...

but after all this time a few things have sunk in..and I have maintained being active on the bandstands for all these years.

I have even backed up a few folks who CLAIMED they were stars..just ask them...

if you need more info contact my first wife...I'm certain she will add a few choice things to the list..

oh, and I know where C is on all of the Instruments, and if they are all in tune the C note's sound pretty close to each other, maybe.

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 January 2006 at 01:43 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 11 Jan 2006 6:18 am

I don't think "credentials" or a player's track record is as important to me as is the expression of his intelligence, logic, knowledge, and open-mindedness in his written opinions.

The opinions people express here are pieces of their autobiography they choose to share with us. Agree or disagree, they're of course entitled to their opinions. The readers of course are entitled to make judgements on the intelligence, character, etc. of these people based on what they write here.

There are some very sharp, knowledgeable people on this forum contributing great information that I learn from even after 43 years of this craziness; guys that have never had a professional gig in their lives and have only been playing a relatively short time.

I've found that the guys who write opinions here I completely disagree with, that make me shake my head and say "that guy just doesn't get it," or "who lifted the rock he crawled out from under?," generally don't have the experiences and therefore the "credentials" of players who've been professional musicians for a significant part of their lives.

And there are also the very experienced guys that I find myself completely disagreeing with as well, but those are far fewer in number and with fewer incidences and levels of disagreement.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 11 January 2006 at 08:30 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Jan 2006 6:30 am

I've always let my playing speak for itself.
I have lots of examples on my website, have two instrumental CDs out, have played on countless songwriter projects, and play the occasional steel show. I don't care what or with whom someone has played or for how long.

I know some players who have played 40 years -- they couldn't play 30, 20, or 10 years ago and they can't play now. I know some who have played with artists I've heard of who I really don't care to listen to. It's a simple fact -- there's no formula. Some people can play; others can't. I know within a minute of their fingers hitting the strings what I think. (as if that matters to anyone other than me)

I really don't care about a players credentials at all. I take anything I read on the Forum with a grain (or two) of salt.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 11 Jan 2006 7:54 am

The SGF is a public forum. There is no set of criteria that any person has to meet, therefore the good with the bad, the experienced with the inexperienced, the nice with the nasty, the dumb with the smart, the Southerners with the Northerners--you get the pic.

I know plenty of folks who are very marginal players who have a wealth of knowledge on instruments and music and such that have plenty to contribute to a public forum. I also know great monster players who won't even come on forums to share their knowledge for whatever reasons they choose.

It is all information. You have to wade through a lot of it to zone in on the info that is really meaningful. At least we have it to wade through.

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 11 Jan 2006 9:18 am

I have been playing steel guitar for 120 years, and am RR's father..... see what you can put on the internet?

"Badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges".

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Jan 2006 9:46 am

What Bill and Dave say is so true.

You hang around long enough you know who spouts the truth and who spouts BS. People have recently mentioned Carl Dixon who always downplayed his abilities at performance but who proved himself to be an excellent teacher and knowledgeable individual on topics of interest to both pedal and nonpedal steel guitarists.

It is wise whenever evaluating information from any source to CONSIDER THE SOURCE and avoid putting too much credence in an unknown source. If that person has made sense and provided useful information in the past, that track record helps establish that person as a credible source.

It's also important to consider the type of information being offered. If a 'hack player' who is a master mechanic is offering information on the design or mechanical workings of a pedal steel, I'd listen more seriously than I would if that person were offering advice on technique. Some people understand their own limitations; others don't.

It's caveat emptor (let the buyer beware)
And remember . . . you may be getting just what you paid for any info you pick up here.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 11 Jan 2006 10:18 am

What's your point Ray?
I agree with Dave, Bill, Larry & Herb.
Everyone has an opinion, qualified or not.
I have read some questions and answers that left me amused to say the least, but there are no dumb questions only unqualified answers here on the forum.
I would not take advice from a greenhorn newbie about how to wear my picks, or tune up, etc., nor do I need it. After 40+ years of picking 6 strings and 25 years behind a steel, playing in 100's of bars & clubs, small concert venues, minor recording and advertising work, voice overs and a local radio career, I consider myself a gifted amateur. I can read enough music and steel tab to get by, I have a very good ear and can play most everything on E9 that I can hear in my head. I have never touched a C6 neck but I am looking forward to it as I have learned from watching BE how to swing on the E neck.
A steel player may not have the "I played for the stars" credentials to be an accomplished and capable player. Many of our members are not famous but they can play their tails off. Others have years of playing steel under their belt and still can't tune up or play in tune or time.
I think the best musicans/players are born not created.
While I can understand your question and respect your knowledge and ability, I wonder what the point is.

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Bo Borland
Once, only my equipment was considered vintage... now I find that I am too!

[This message was edited by Bo Borland on 11 January 2006 at 10:23 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 11 Jan 2006 10:23 am

Pass the Steel Guitar Proficiency Exam and get your steel guitar license. Pay the FCC (F-Pedal Chord Congress) $1,000. Ya gotta be able to pick 120 notes per minute for the General Class. Novices get the introductory license at 15 chords per minute. Extra Class license to those who can do to Chimes and Harmonics. Only Extra Class can be examiners but must give exams for free
(Oh no, don't let the Fed's hear about this or they'll be on to a new revenue stream...

For those not familiar with the attempt at paradigm humor, this is the method used for years in Amateur Radio Operator licensing. I hope to dickens no-one takes offense at the attempt at humor.
I for one am only a modest picker, 40 years worth. and I highly respect all of the rest of the members of this forum be they new to the instrument or master pickers. Anyone having the nerve to take up this instrument deserves respect and consideration.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 11 January 2006 at 11:42 AM.]

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 11 Jan 2006 10:59 am

I suppose you get what you get from an open internet forum, Ray.
Larry's got a great point about "track record".

A couple of examples from my personal history using your two main points:

When I first started playing, I went to a Maurice Anderson seminar in Kalamazoo, and asked why he used three fingerpicks when most everyone else used two. He looked at me somewhat disdainfully and replied, "Well, how many fingers do you have?"
I struggled for several years experimenting with three, thinking someone who played so well must know what he was talking about. Eventually I figured out that stylistically, it just wasn't for me. Maurice is of course still a monster.

I did what may be the last interview with Jimmy Crawford, and when I jokingly brought up the "black sounds better" controversy, he assured me in all seriousness, that black mica did indeed make a difference on Emmons guitars and JCH's- being a different thickness and material than other colors. He said he was certain of it, after working with literally thousands of Emmons Guitars over many years. If anybody would know...

My point being, here are two guys of impeccable credentials, and two opinions many would still disagree with.

I've seen some opinions represented as "fact" here on the forum, that could be seriously misleading to the uninformed, and also mounds of invaluable information not to be found anywhere else. As in most things, it takes some sifting and an open mind to figure out which is which.

I'm not so sure a certification program would make any difference!

Dave White · Post by **Dave White** » 11 Jan 2006 11:02 am

Ray Minich--- I can pick 120 notes per minute--they might not be the right ones, but I can pick 'em. I can do chimes--I got an old doorbell bolted to the side of my BMI. Does that mean I get a Extra Class? Seriously, though, as a newbie (2 months) I come on this forum for knowledge and advice, musical and mechanical. I feel that everyone here brings a wealth of various experiences and backgrounds, whether they are "hacks" or "masters." Credentials are not as important to me as advice that helps me improve my playing and knowledge of the instrument. I appreciate all the folks who unselfishly share what they know with me and others, and the friendliness and good humor that is usually found on this forum. [This message was edited by Dave White on 11 January 2006 at 11:03 AM.]

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 11 Jan 2006 11:31 am

Larry Bell, Herb Steiner, to mention but two, had some really in-depth comments and I thank them and each of you for taking the time to contribute to this post.
I was not advocating anything nor even suggesting anything. I simply asked a question.
However, at times, I feel sorry for the newbie who might not realize the information they're getting in answer to their legitimate question......is based on just so much hot air. However, as others have said so well, weigh each and every remark carefully and then act purdently.
THANKS everyone!

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 11 Jan 2006 11:44 am

I can pick 120 notes per minute

But Dave, can you play 120 notes per measure?

Only joking, man.

Seriously, many years ago I was at my friend's house when he was giving a flatpick guitar lesson. He was talking about a certain right hand pick technique which he said "allows you to play cleanly and evenly whether you're playing 1/4 notes, 8th notes, 16th notes, 32nd notes, 64th notes, or 128th notes!"

I said "excuse me, Al, but uh,... 128th notes!?!"

He thought for a second and then said "on real slow blues..., yeah."

Sorry to hijack the topic. My bad.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 11 Jan 2006 12:53 pm

Come on folks!

The Steel guitar forum is the only place I can go to talk about steel topics and feel kinda like an authority! I can't talk to my family and friends about it! It's hard enough to get practice in at even a moderate volume without somebody commenting that I've played that song a few times before!!!

And now I need credentials to have an opinion on the forum?

Sheeesh! Maybe I'll find me a banjo forum where the requirements are less stringent.

Terry

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 11 Jan 2006 12:54 pm

CREDENTIALS, Uh! I don't put a lot into credentials. I don't put anybody down for there playing ability, as we're all on different levels. I like to just play, whether it's on stage at a steel show or in a local jam session. To me it's real simple. Either a person can play or they need a lot of practice time to get better. I keep an open invitation to anyone that wants to play my guitar. Just as long as long as they leave the good licks on it!