steel courses

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 7 Jan 2006 7:23 am

Calvin, you said: "well one thing i have learned here is that; you can't get 3 people to agree that you will get wet standing in a hurricane"

Thats because during the eye of the storm, it does not rain, yet your still "in" the hurricane. So, as you can tell, people look at things in different perspectives....Good luck...James

Gaeron Baker · Post by **Gaeron Baker** » 7 Jan 2006 8:36 am

Mr. Walley,
I would highly recommend Mr. Steiner's
"Swinging on E9th" course to you
for the following reasons:

1. Excellent for practicing the wider
grips in a non-drudgery fashion
2. Although not a theory course per se
Music theory seems to be absorbed
in a nonpainful way.
3. His tablature shows what the pedals
actually doing (i.e. sharpening or
flatting the string)
4. Great selection of tunes especially
for players who want something other
than the country standards.
5. For some reason (Major chords?)
Intonation is more intuitive on the
swing tunes. I sound more in tune
which is very satisfying!
6. The courses are an excellent value
good tab and a cd (slowed down tempo)
compared to more expensive courses.
7. It is hard to get frustrated when
playing "Sunny Side of the Street"!
8. Although I haven't met him
Mr. Steiner is supposed to be an
all around good guy

I think he has said that his courses may be
(too?)challenging for beginners but don't let that scare anyone off. It is quite fun
to work the tunes out a phrase at a time

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 7 Jan 2006 9:08 am

This thread has contained several references to learning music theory, and at the risk of appearing self promoting, I must mention that I've written a book on the subject, and a supplement to that book explaining how the concepts presented in it apply to the E9 pedals.

The book is called "Music Theory In The Teal Word, A practical Guide For Today's Musicians." It is published by Mel Bay Publications and is avaiable wherever Mel Bay books are sold.

I request that those of you who buy the book, buy it from Scotty. He deserves our support.

The supplement is free. I will E-mail the file to anybody who wants it.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 7 Jan 2006 9:17 am

I would like to second the last two posts - Mike's book and supplement are invaluable. And Herb's Swingin' on E9 is very clearly presented and loads of fun.

And I don't even play E9, really. I have one guitar I keep tuned that way to work through learning materials - then I try to transfer what I learned to my B6 Frankenstein machine.

But I've gotten more from those two sources and Joe Wright's first 4 video lessons than from either of the two "Bibles" of steel instruction: Winston's and Scotty's. But then, I'm not a beginning musician, just a beginning steel player and one weak in theory.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 7 Jan 2006 11:23 am

ok how about this : what is the failure rate ? and be honest . how do you measure success? is success someone like Bobby ? what about the guy that can only play so so after a couple of years is that success or do we mark him on the failure side? what i call success others might consider failure so you see we do need some tangable way from which to measure ourselves.

uh oh here comes that dirty word again

it would be helpful if we students had a standard from which to measure our progress

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 7 Jan 2006 11:53 am

it would be helpful if we students had a standard from which to measure our progress

As a student and beginner, I respectfully disagree. Metrics are not the means to an end. Measurement of musicality is qualitative; music is not quantifiable, because it is an art.

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 7 Jan 2006 12:00 pm

Calvin, you have to measure your own progress. I have no idea what Bobby played like 4 months into his steel career. Success is a measurement you must also determine on your own. To me, success on the tele was getting paid to do it. To my pal Gene, it was playing in his bedroom to his favorite Brent Mason licks. To me, success on steel would be to play 10 or so songs a night in the band and play tele the rest of time. You might not think playing 10 steel songs at the VFW Hall is very successful, but to me, it would be a milestone and would make me very happy. So, what is success to you? Where do you want be on steel in 6 months and what are you doing to get you there? Do you have sub-goals to help you arrive at the ultimate goal? You have to plan to play steel and work at each moment in order step up to the next stepping-stone. Once you understand what you need to learn, then just get the material and learn it and measure your progress by the goals you set for yourself.....James

Ken Yates · Post by **Ken Yates** » 7 Jan 2006 12:13 pm

I also am a Newbie/beginner. How can You measure sucess? I consider it sucess when you can play your first solo that someone will recognize. As far as a set standard, the only set standsrd you can have is learning the basics. Since each and every steel guitar is different, and since each and every individual learning/playing the steel guitar is also different, you have millions of combinations, then there can be no set standard past the basic playing fundementals. Each individual and his steel guitar will make their own standards or style. That's my humble opinion and 2 cents worth.
Ken

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Derby SD 10,,,Nashville 112,,,Hilton,,,RV-3

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 7 Jan 2006 12:35 pm

As a beginner, I too am glad there's not a standardized method, or I'd be out of luck.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 7 Jan 2006 1:17 pm

hey you have a good point that everyone has has his own goals , but if you think about it we all are measureng ourselves by something, be it our own playing compared to where we were 6 months ago, or whether its comparing ourselves to Bobbys playing
yea its hard and somewhat subjective, but i am firmly convinced it can be done..
one other thing steel playing is subjective but don't give me that howg wash that its " art " even if it was , art is taught every day in very formal and strict formats

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 7 Jan 2006 2:39 pm

"it would be helpful if we students had a standard from which to measure our progress"

Against WHAT????? You still refuse to even approach answering what standards you are looking for. you refuse to answer style questions. You refuse to acknowledge that the instrument is used in many, many types of music.

"but don't give me that howg wash that its " art " even if it was , art is taught every day in very formal and strict formats"

Each style is taught differently. Is THAT what you're looking for? Different standards for different styles?

Calvin, why are you so set on needing to compare yourself to some other person's level of playing? Who cares? It's not a contest. I've never heard anyone before now ask for a quantifiable "progress report standard" for instrument playing.

Since you won't answer any of the questions posed you, I'll just give you a suggestion:

Take up distance running instead. Or darts. Or any other activity that has a measurable result. Guitar playing isn't for you. It will never meet your needs.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 7 Jan 2006 3:14 pm

First, there's a lot of wisdom that's been shared here on this thread. I think it's one of the better ones lately. Next...

Bottom line: once you get past basic musicianship, there IS NO standardization.

Hey, there are many different ways to teach almost every instrument: piano, violin, guitar, all wind instruments, etc. Otherwise, there would be only one course of study published, right?

And just go to any catalog of music publications and you'll see hundreds of different courses teaching all kinds of instruments.

Other than knowing theory, the rules of music... that is, scale knowledge, chord knowledge, interval knowledge, etc.... many people have different interpretations of how to teach an instrument. I own many, many steel instruction products because I want to know how other players think, how they teach, and I may find something I'd really like to play.

If a player finds him or herself on a creative plateau and doesn't know how to get to another place, here's my suggestion:

First and foremost, he should decide where he wants to go. By that I mean, who/what he wants to sound like, whose licks he wants to play. Then, he should pick one course from that player or a similar one, and get with it.

Now... (big pause) he should take the course to a competent steel teacher and say "This is the stuff I want to learn." Have the teacher go through the tab with him and demonstrate how it physically looks to play what's on the CD and the paper.

Have teacher critique his physical movements. Have teacher critique his "sound." These critiques should be constructive criticism, not "that really sucks." If teacher's good riding the student's ass and he doesn't dig it, the student will improve.

Now the REALLY hard part... self analysis.

Three players get the same course: two work on the tunes and progress, while the third player can't seem to get through the thing. Is the problem with the course or with the student?

This is important... that student must own up to the fact that the source of his lack of progress is HIMSELF, and not an imaginary problem created to avoid personal responsibility.

That is the platform where real learning will begin.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 07 January 2006 at 03:43 PM.]

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 7 Jan 2006 4:54 pm

ooook i think i got it now:
we as steel players have a 0 failure rate
i mean after all the only possiable reason a person quits is because he is just to lazy or stupid.
not our fault right?
we also have the only perfect teaching method that has ever been developed, no need for improvement here,
nope ..just can't be done .
i would suggest that when we get finished patting ourselves on the back we tell the rest of the world how we accomplished this miracle so they can copy us, shucks we will all be hailed as hero's

God i hope no one is dumb enough to belive this crock

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 7 Jan 2006 5:01 pm

Calvin, you're pretty stuborn, why dont you just learn some chords and scales and make some music? As Joe Wright and John Fabian say: "Its just a guitar". Go play the darn thing....James[This message was edited by James Sission on 07 January 2006 at 05:02 PM.]

Don Walworth · Post by **Don Walworth** » 7 Jan 2006 5:09 pm

Great thread!! Should be printed and included in music training manuals, etc.

I hope there is NOT a standard!! I'd never make it!!! I know my limits -- I know where I want to go..... I will not be a session player in Nashville --- my goals are simple; just learn required basic skills to enjoy playing along with my BIAB program at home. I enjoy my GeorgeBoards, Cindy Cashdollar and DeWitt Scott CD's/DVD's --- but I'll be looking for some one-on-one instruction.

Some people, when they paint a ceiling, do it like Michelangelo: I do it like Archy Bunker!!

It's called PLAYING (ie play)---- and my only negitive comment is to those steel players that are not supportive of my meager attempts - and none are on this forum.

Oh, I'm 70 and "play" a 8 string 1955 Gibson that I purchased thanks to this forum (Bob Knight, thanks!).

don

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 7 Jan 2006 5:10 pm

So in summary, you are all lying idiots, I can't play, and it is your fault. You sure haven't come too far since this:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/007714.html

Daryl Stogner · Post by **Daryl Stogner** » 7 Jan 2006 5:42 pm

Don't consider this as whining or anything near to it. I bought my first PSG in the summer of 2004. Started watching video's I had bought, looking at tab and going by what was already in my head from playing in bands with some pretty good steel players.

It was hard sometimes and it was easy sometimes. I had to push myself to learn and that's hard sometimes for us older cowboys.

Then my 28 yr marriage ended, had to remodel a rental house I owned and move into it. Went thru the divorce and picking up the pieces to get a new start. I seldom got to sit down and practice like I had been doing.

But I kept my guitar setup and ready to play and I am still at it. I've even sat in with my church band a few times and played, keeping it very simple. Ya know what they loved it. Forced me to learn faster so I wouldn't embarrass myself too bad! hahaha

My point is that even with the little distraction I've gone thru this past year, ya have to want it to play it. Good bad or mediocre ya gotta try if you want it bad enough.

I can play bass or guitar all I want, but to sit down at a PSG and do at least the minimum in a band is a hoot! The practice is hard, but a joy, improvement comes with that stuff.

As for guys being snobs or looking down at new pickers, I've never seen that. When I told Norm Hamlet I was thinking about taking up steel, he didn't discourage me, he just told me that he'd practice 4 or more hours a day and drive his Mom nuts. I took that as some sound advice from one of the best.

I know a bunch of steelers and when possible I will hang around and listen, why wouldn't they want to talk about their craft and share it with someone genuinely wanting to learn? It may be dog eat dog when it comes to paying gigs (in some places), but we're still a family of folks that care.

These steel guitar shows are popular as can be and people pay to get in. Yup money is made and who cares? When ya go to these things you are being entertained, and being taught things along the way...if you're paying attention. But most importantly we are making new friends and renewing old friendships.

We have no one but ourselves to blame if we don't push ourselves to do our best. That my friends comes with time and practice, it ain't coming to any of us thru osmosis.

This stuff is supposed to be fun, even learning how to play it. Don't make it into a chore.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 7 Jan 2006 5:52 pm

Calvin, in your last post you said nothing of any impact or importance. Herb made some great points, as have many others. I think I asked you some valid questions as well.

You refuse to respond directly to any of them. You just keep posting your own agenda (whatever it is - I don't think anyone can figure out what you really want) and don't directly respond to helpful suggestions.

You're just whining. Please stop. It's pointless and annnoying that you won't discuss anything.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 7 Jan 2006 6:26 pm

page 1 post 1 please reread it
nowhere did i say they good materail is not out there , i simply asked why it is so hard to find ? later on i asked what would be wrong with looking at what a beginer is facing in an effort to make the process less painful for lack of a better word than it has to be
not once was i referring to myself
i only pointed out a couple of things from my own limeted exposure in an effort to get the discussion going . i have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me thats what the forum is all about
many times i tryed to turn the discussion back to where it should have been : a collective effort to improve things for future steelers yet to come
i have taken a lot of flax, so be it.. i have very tough skin
but the end result has been accomplished . it got a lot of folks thinking
if any of you are mad at me i can assure you that was not my intention...its true i have had my share of frustrations with the steel ...still do,
but this thread was never ever about me [This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 07 January 2006 at 06:39 PM.]

Pete Finney · Post by **Pete Finney** » 7 Jan 2006 6:39 pm

Well, I reread that first post and I don't think anyone can miss that you're insulting those who have gone to the trouble to do instructional material (and you say outright that you've seen most of it which I find amazing). You do have a history on this forum of blaming others for your own frustrations as a player, AND many of your concerns were addressed long ago with great patience by Winnie Winston among others, but you preferred to argue with them as they tried to share their hard won wisdom with you. THEN in this thread you just keep throwing around attitude without addressing many of the serious points being made.

I'd say Tony and Herb among others have the patience of saints and while I really admire that, I'm not sure why they bother in this case. You have more information at your fingertips just in this forum then they (or I) ever had starting out but you are so locked into your own ways of looking at things nothing seems to get through... A sad waste, I'd have given ANYTHING to have such experienced players taking my concerns seriously when I was starting out...

And it DOES take certain innate abilities to play music on any instrument; if you persist on seeing it as just a machine to be figured out I personally think you will never "get it". And despite your disdain for the word, there IS "art" to music as well as "mechanics" and technique (simply means to an end) and that just cannot be measured (and no one can make you see that if you're so determined not to see it). [This message was edited by Pete Finney on 07 January 2006 at 08:16 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 7 Jan 2006 7:07 pm

Calvin, I think Jim Sliff asked some good questions. Would you consider looking past his increasingly frustrated tone and answering them? If you want the thread to stay on track that would go a long way towards helping it to do so.

-Travis

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 7 Jan 2006 7:13 pm

OK, I guess there's enough here for me to step into the fray. These are my opinions, based on my experience as a college teacher. I teach or have taught electrical engineering, computer and information sciences, and mathematics at the college level, and guitar and banjo privately. I'm a relatively new steel player.

There is a lot of research on how humans learn, and quite honestly, the real key is time spent intensively practicing relevant things. It doesn't matter whether it's math, physics, history, writing, languages, painting, or music. Now, figuring out what is relevant is where the organization comes in, but the "intensive" part comes from one of two sources: inner motivation or external motivation. One thing is known: if you really are excited about learning something and just go for the jugular, you will very likely learn, and quickly.

So, it is my view that someone who is truly burning with the desire to learn something will turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. To someone who really doesn't want to do something, nothing will help. Most people are in the middle, in my experience. For them, different things will make sense or turn them on. This is why there should never be a "standard" way to present ideas on any topic. Similarly, different people have different natural aptitudes or prerequisite background, and progress should be judged individually. It is this individualized evaluation and feedback that makes a live teacher so valuable, IMO.

Of course, in a university or music school, performance is judged. People love to think that this is "objective", but that's nonsense, IMO. The very selection of topics to be judged on is totally subjective. I frequently teach mathematics right now, and most standardized testing is pretty much irrelevant - it usually measures how much pattern-recognized information can be memorized and regurgitated on a timed exam. I get many students who have done this just fine for many years in math courses, but when I ask them to apply simple mathematics to a practical problem, they are totally lost. Similarly in music, IMO. The goal in music performance is to give a technically competent and artistically satisfying performance. Watching how fast a student can execute scale passages, play certain figures, and so on, is only one part of the picture. Ultimately, most people judge the whole performance, and it is very subjective. Within a "school of thought", there are some objective criteria, but in the arts, a big part of it is "Is it pleasing, or not?".

I'm not at all against new ways of explaining how to play steel guitar. They will come in time. But I have purchased and also seen courses (that I will purchase) that are excellent in terms of explaining the ideas they were driving at, but it is up to the student to supply the framework, and also the blood, sweat, and tears, to internalize these ideas. Some examples:

1. Tim McCasland - PSG, Vol I and II
2. Jeff Newman - several
3. Bobbe Seymour - several
4. Cindy Cashdollar - Western Swing Steel Guitar, Vol. I and II
5. Lloyd Maines - 60 Hot Licks for PSG
6. Wally Moyers - Complete Guide to C6
7. Herb Steiner - Swing on E9
8. Winnie Winston - PSG

I don't have Joe Wright's materials, but from what I hear, I think I should. There are tons of others that I will investigate as I go on - Paul Franklin, Bruce Bouton, and many others I'm sure. There's enough in all of this to keep me going for years. Not to mention the huge resource that is this forum. This is infinitely mo' better than what I had available when I started learning 6-string guitar in the 60s.

Interestingly, in my science and math teaching, I get many students who stubbornly insist that there should be some "algorithm" for teaching and evaluating work, and expect someone else to do their internal organization for them. Just as interestingly, those are the ones who tend not to learn much.

IMO, ones view of instructional materials and teaching organization is largely a question of "bottle half-full vs half-empty". One can complain about the half-empty bottle, or drink from the half-full one. I guess it depends on how thirsty one is.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 7 Jan 2006 7:14 pm

For whatever it's worth, I learned from Winnie's book.

My advise to beginners: learn all your basic positions for the major and minor chords,(There aren't that many) and a few elementary licks, and get into a band, and start gigging and as soon as possible.

A teacher is invaluable, and you can learn a lot from the various courses out there, but NOTHING beats playing on a bandstand all night a couple of nights a week.

Even after studying this instrument for 26 years, I still learn something every time I get on a bandstand.

kbdrost · Post by **kbdrost** » 7 Jan 2006 7:22 pm

This is actually a pretty good thread...although I'm not exactly sure where it came from or where it's going. There is no "Holy Grail" to learing steel guitar. If there was, we would all know it, and no one would use anything else. I also play six-string guitar, and IMHO, there is no "Holy Grail" for learning that instrument, either. I don't play anything else, but I suspect the results from a poll of those who do would be the same.

I think steel is more difficult to play, because it involves so many more body movements, but beyond that, I think it's no different than anything else. People will gravitate towards the instructional materials that fit best with their particular intuitive learning style, and no one will know what those are until you try them. Sorry, Calvin, but that's the way it is.

Beyond that, the best advice I have for anybody is to get out and play with real people in live bands. Rythym tracks in your bedroom are OK for figuring out some stuff, but there is nothing like a live experience to get your chops down. Someone asked: "how do you know when you've achieved success?" I guess you never do. But I know I'm not telling anybody who's experienced anything new when I say that when I get off the bandstand after I've played what I think is the crappiest set I've ever done in my life and someone comes up and says "Wow, man, I really loved your playing; you guys are really good," and I know that it's not just some B.S. from an inebrietated bar patron, I guess I must have done something right.

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Ken Drost
steelcrazy after all these years

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 7 Jan 2006 7:33 pm

Calvin, despite all that was said here by so many players, I don't believe you "get it," so let me quote Edward R. Murrow and say "good night,... and good luck."

Herb out.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association