So why are we?

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 29 Dec 2005 9:00 am

After seeing an intelligent observation from Rick Garett,(In the cool/uncool post) I have to ask. Why are we trying to go backwards? I also find steel players fall into those who want to play the same tired stuff, and those who are more open minded to newer music. J.C.

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 29 Dec 2005 9:21 am

John, I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that it's fear of change, fear of losing identity, or fear of being forgotten. I'm not as experienced and I haven't lived as long as most of the more seasoned players on the Forum. I also didn't grow up listening to the kind of music that steel is typically identified with. But if I was part of a "club" or brotherhood that enjoyed a heydey, only to have our membership made obsolete by some new "fad" sound or a watered-down (per)version of what was once pure to me, then you can bet I'm gonna gripe.

If being "cool" is as simple as being accepted by an audience, or the steel "club members", or whomever, then I'm betting those who are against change want to feel cool again.

What I'm more interested in knowing is how those players that ARE doing something different or new, how does it feel to be excluded from the "club"? Do they even care?

Matt[This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 29 December 2005 at 09:38 AM.]

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Dec 2005 9:27 am

why on earth would you call what many think is the best music ever produced " tired " i for one will never tire of it..the so called new music may be fine if your a teenager and have no idea what good music is supposed to sound like but even many teenagers once they are exposed to real music like it

calvin

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 29 Dec 2005 10:06 am

I'm guessing that it's fear of change, fear of losing identity, or fear of being forgotten.

I think that's a good point, and pretty much my theory about this too.

But I can't understand the logic behind this fear,- the fact that something new comes along doesn't need to take anything away from the old traditions, developement and tradition should be able to coexist peacefully without one threatening to wipe out the other.

Did Jimi Hendrix diminish Chet Atkins', Django Reinhardt's or Les Paul's well deserved place in the history of guitar? Aren't these traditions still alive and vibrant today?
Did Jerry Lee Lewis' piano style diminish the beauty of Chopin's music?

So I don't get it, I simply can't understand how steel guitar branching out in other styles can be a threat to it's traditional role in country music, or to the recruitment of traditional players.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 29 December 2005 at 10:10 AM.]

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 29 Dec 2005 10:12 am

musical style evolves in all genres, always has, always will. You have masters and classic songs and sounds and styles, then you have innovators who extend the threads started by these masters. All instruments, all styles of music. To want to play in the style of a master or to play classic songs is not moving backwards unless you want to think of style as a linear progression (which is very limiting and in which you will almost always be moving "backwards"). I prefer to think of it as a nebulous mass, constantly evolving, yet constantly referencing what came before. No head, no tail, all the parts equal the sum.

As for whats cool or not. Pfft...who cares?!
Go to a mall and find a store called Hot Topic, its a teenage clothing store ultra hip kinda joint. You'll see John Deer caps , Pabst belt buckles...all the redneck stuff is suddenly "cool". Cool schmool...I like what i like, I wear what I wear, etc..

specifically as regards this great innovator you are talkin about and how he's moving things forward....I'm fairly ignorant of your instrument, but I dont hear any astounding leaps and bounds there...just some tasty blues licks (not really my cup of tea). no one has played blues on one of these guitars before? I must be missing something.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 29 Dec 2005 10:17 am

Nicely put, Steinar.

The music available from any instrument, whether a D-12 PSG, a piano, a bongo drum or a rubber band, is only limited by the mindset of the person playing it.

Case in point: The most fun I had at our very fun "country" gig the other night was an off-the-cuff version of "All of Me" that emerged without warning, complete with steel guitar figures a la Nelson Riddle.

Another notable example: A couple years back I did a gig with Rodney Crowell. Before sound check I told him how much I liked his song "Ain't No Money" - naturally I hoped to hear his own "country" version of it in the course of the show. His band was in a pretty "funky" mood that day and imagine my surprise and delight when in the midst of sound check I realized that they were playing the brand new at that moment "rap" version of that very song!

If you've ever heard Eric West play "Unchained Melody" on the E9 neck you KNOW that it's really a steel guitar song that never got done right before.

The traditional stuff will always be a gas for me to hear and play, but it's outside the box that I continually find the really big grins are lurking.

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 29 December 2005 at 10:27 AM.]

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 29 Dec 2005 10:30 am

Calvin, all I know is that I can't watch the same movie over and over and over again. Sure, it was good the first time, but eventually I want to watch something new with different dialogue and special effects.

I love cheese, but I can't eat it 3 times a day every day. Sometimes I want steak.

I can't watch VHS recordings of last year's news. I want to stay on top of what's happening now.

The same thing applies to steel guitar. I stopped going to steel guitar shows in Dallas because I had a hard time telling one player from another out about 90% of the players. Things sure haven't changed much in 25 years since Tom Bradshaw wrote the "Country Killers" article in The Steel Guitarist Magazine.

The music of your day was great. In fact, it was pretty innovative for its time. But it's been done better than I could ever reproduce it. And I'd rather spend the rest of my life trying to be a mediocre, original ME than the best imitator of _________ (insert your favorite steel hero over the age of 50 here).

I think John's argument is that we need more artists on the steel than players. This has been said so many times by others. When we stop growing, we die. OK, off of the soapbox.

Matt

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 29 Dec 2005 11:13 am

Has classical music changed? The last time I checked I took up steel to play country music. I'm not interested in playing rock, blues, or any other crap. The steel guitar was invented to play country music, at least on E 9th. Why the hell should I have to appologize for wanting to play music that the steel guitar was designed for? I want to play harmonic melodic music. Tired stuff? Maybe your tired, but I will always love real country music and the people that associate with it. Where's my Louvin Brothers CD?[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 29 December 2005 at 11:15 AM.]

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 29 Dec 2005 11:26 am

has classical music changed? yes it has!!!
ALL music changes and evolves, but it doesnt negate the stuff that came before it or devalue it in any way at all. Classical music has changed radically over the course of centuries.
Maybe Beethoven thought Mozart was old fashioned and uncool?

y'all shouldnt be afraid of change, you should welcome it..its natural and inevitable...That dont mean you have to like it, or stop liking the music you like..but no need to fear it. Bad music wont hurt you much...hehe..the off switch is just a fingertip away.

good music will always be good music wether it was made yesterday or 200 years ago [This message was edited by Ben Jones on 29 December 2005 at 11:28 AM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 29 Dec 2005 11:30 am

Why the hell should I have to appologize for wanting to play music that the steel guitar was designed for?

You certainly shouldn't have to apologize for that Kevin, and neither should those who wants to take the steel guitar into other musical territories.

Performing music is about expressing what's inside of you on your chosen instrument, and nobody should have to apologize for that,- no matter what genre they choose as a vehicle for their art. Total honesty and integrity is crucial to become a great player.

There's no need to personally enjoy or "understand" what they're doing, but some basic respect shouldn't be too much to ask for.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 29 Dec 2005 11:31 am

"classical music changed?"

You mean between Bach and Webern? A bit. Just a few recent inovators in this space: John Adams, Arvo Part, Steve Reich.

I don't think anyone is saying you should feel ashamed because you want to play classic country on a pedal steel. I guess people are saying they would like it if people would stop denigrating those who don't wish to play that way.

I guess there are guys who feel that classic rock of the 70's is the only music to play, but there are others of us who would like to kill the next person who plays Stairway to Heaven.

Mike Archer · Post by **Mike Archer** » 29 Dec 2005 11:35 am

im with you KEVIN playing steel
in a counrty band is why i started
playing steel to start with
while i do like jazz and western swing
on steel playing them cool ole steel licks makes me smile a lot on e9
to me playing smooth and with good taste
and with ones own style is where its at for me and finding a few new things along
the way to keep fresh

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 29 Dec 2005 11:40 am

hehe Bill...right on

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 29 Dec 2005 11:42 am

How much of our musical tastes is dictated by hormones? Do we have a musical peak, like we have a sexual peak. When I was young, certain sounds gave me a musical high which is hard to explain. The tone on the guitar solo in the Everly Bros. song Lucelle, (which I found out later was Jimmy Day on Steel) or the organ sound on "Sally go round the Roses", and the first time I heard George Jones or Johnny paycheck sing. Now I have to look outside the box to get those same musical rushes. However, Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green and Ralph Mooney still give me goose bumps.[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 29 December 2005 at 11:44 AM.]

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 29 Dec 2005 12:21 pm

Yes, Kevin, classical music has and does change like everything else. What else would you call a film score? Colleges and universities still have composition programs. It didn't just end with the late 19th or early 20th century.

But I'll bet this "keep it nuthin' but country and screw all that other crap" mentality is one of the main reasons why more kids haven't picked up the steel in the last 3 decades: because so few in those days could actually have opportunities or imagination to use it outside the traditional E9th vein. If they did, it was usually some kind of watered-down, country lick that was imposed over a rock progression. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the kids' role in keeping the steel alive.

FWIW, it was a fusion guitarist (Allan Holdsworth) that turned me on to this instrument because of his clean, steel-like tone and sophisticated chord voicings, not a country player.

Matt

Larry Hamilton · Post by **Larry Hamilton** » 29 Dec 2005 12:44 pm

An artist/player can play what ever kind of music he or she wants to on our beloved instrument, the steel guitar. It is limited only by the person. I'm pretty much limited to country but on the times I have to play rock with a band I can get by. If they do a little westernswing, ah-ha, I can do a little C6th. Wish I could play more jazz, even if only for myself.

I like many types of music but only play what I like to play. Since I don't depend on music for a living I don't have to play what I don't like all the time.

When I hear a player rock out jazz out or whatever I am in Awe of them and maybe try to learn maybe one of their licks. But still only play what I like thus limiting myself.

Just my simple thoughts. Thanks for your time.

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Keep pickin', Larry

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Dec 2005 1:44 pm

I also find steel players fall into those who want to play the same tired stuff, and those who are more open minded to newer music.

I detect rather narrow minds on both sides of this argument. Different people like different styles, that is the only irrefutable truth. Neither is ever going to go away. The older guard says..."We don't want it to change", while the newer, younger guard says..."Stop playin' the same old crap".

Isn't that about it? How droll.

You don't have to like everything that's out there, but if you just accept it or ignore it, you'll have a happier life. Music is like anything else, it goes in and out of main-stream style periodically. The old stuff that's really good will never go away entirely. The new stuff that's good will likewise become a part of the tapestry of steel guitar. That which does not have quality or a memorable style will soon be forgotten, never to return.

Those who say that they don't like Robert Randolph (or any other "new" steeler) should just accept the fact that others do, and get on with life. Nobody can tell you what to play or what to like, that's your decision alone. Accept the fact that others are going to do and like what they want. Whining here (or anyplace else) ain't gonna change it.

Conversely, those of you who say that us old guys are stuck in a rut and they're tired of hearing the same old stuff should visit a furniture store and try telling the manager..."You ought'a stop carrying that Early American crap!" I suspect you'll get the same response you get here when you tell us to forget Jimmy Day and "Release Me", and all that other "old stuff".

The moral of the story is that there is no "backwards" or "forwards" in music, there are only locations...and you can go (or stay) wherever you want.

Isn't that wonderful?

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 29 Dec 2005 1:53 pm

Donny,

It's a lot more fun to stir up trouble and drama on the Forum when the work day is slow. From now 'til eternity, it'll be my personal mission to make each and every one of you think like me

.

Matt[This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 29 December 2005 at 01:58 PM.]

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 29 Dec 2005 2:29 pm

"There's only 2 kinds of music. Good and bad."

D. Ellington

John Ummel · Post by **John Ummel** » 29 Dec 2005 2:33 pm

The Lord makes all things new ...
Keep your heart in the right place and play the music you love.
God bless you all, Happy New Year!
Johnny

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 29 Dec 2005 2:58 pm

To further comment on Duke Ellington's quote, I think it was David Lee Roth that said "90% of every kind of music is crap" (although I wonder what catagory history is gonna put David's stuff in?...ha!)

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 29 Dec 2005 3:03 pm

I agree with Donny's last post, verbatim.

Enjoyment of music is not a zero-sum game, in which for one side to "win," the other must "lose." People can play steel guitar like RR and it doesn't negatively impact anything a country music player could play or enjoy listening to.

What I can't figure out about those who dis RR is this: what the heck is y'all's problem?

Is it ENVY that RR's getting the recognition that Buddy Emmons isn't getting?

Is it JEALOUSY to realize that blues-rock music, essentially African-Negro-urban-whatever-based music, is more universally popular and therefore is diminishing the music of the poor, persecuted White Anglo Middle-Aged Male (the least persecuted member of American society, BTW)?

Is it ANGER over the realization that what we've enjoyed all our lives is considered outdated crap by a great majority of the population, and therefore we as players/fans are experiencing rejection?

Is it FEAR that the PSG will be usurped by a new wave of musicians who won't care that Buddy played the great solo on "Touch My Heart," and therefore life as we know it will cease?

It's a giant identity crisis, I think. Whatever it is, jeez... (constructive criticism here) get a life outside your music rooms, y'all!! It's WAY MORE FUN to put energy into all the things you COULD like than it is to focus on what it is you DON'T like.

On steel guitar, I play traditional country and western swing. I've also played folk-rock, progressive country, "singer-songwriter" stuff, and blues rock when called for on a session. That's because I'm a professional musician and in a service business. People hire me to play steel guitar and if they want a certain sound or style, if I want their money (and I do), most of the time I do my damndest to give it to them.

There was a time in my early-mid teens when I was a traditional bluegrass musician and wouldn't have played an electric instrument for the life of me. I also dabbled in blues guitar but early on realized I wasn't cut out for that.

I've played rhythm electric guitar when doing classic 60's rock with a dance band I played in during the 1980's.

I love be-bop (1940's-50's small combo jazz a la Parker, Gillespie, Davis), I love big-band jazz, I love classical music. I love Broadway show tunes and play them on steel guitar. I love Gershwin and play some of his tunes on steel guitar. I think Robert Randolph rocks, just like Freddie Roulette rocks.

But 99% of the music I perform live to audiences is traditional country and western swing. But that doesnt' keep me from loving a whole lot of music. And it also doesn't pull my panties in a wad when someone thinks my taste in music sucks. I don't give a flip, they're not listening with my ears and I don't feel that anyone NEEDS to like what I like to make me feel good.

There's crap and there's gold in every field of music. It all depends on the message being communicated and the skills of the communicators.

There is an analogy here with our community and the feelings of many jazz musicians and aficionados regarding the music and successful career of Kenny G. Kenny Gorelick was a moderately accomplished though hardly outstanding jazz improviser on saxophone, but he hit a commercial sound and became fabulously successful monetarily with his music. But it wasn't great JAZZ, even though that's how it was marketed. This in turn aggravated many serious jazz musicians who labor in obscurity or in other jobs while this player of lesser abilities made tons and tons of cash. I've heard anger, fear, jealousy, resentment, rejection, etc. Everything but "the public doesn't like what I'M DOING, and because of what I CHOSE TO DO, I'm poor and he's rich" as if it has nothing to do with the path THEY elected to take.

Those are the breaks, sh*t happens, get over it and enjoy what God's given you.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 29 December 2005 at 03:17 PM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 29 December 2005 at 03:19 PM.]

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 29 Dec 2005 3:19 pm

did Buddy Emmons catch alot of crud for his Steel Guitar Jazz album?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 29 Dec 2005 3:21 pm

Buddy hated his jazz album, but Down Beat magazine, the Bible of jazz periodicals, gave it a "five star" rating, the highest.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Dec 2005 4:45 pm

classical music at least on a piano never changes , you have to play it note for note like it was written a couple hundred years ago or else every piano teacher in the country will give you the dickens, no one calls it tired so why should anyone think the steel should " change " you liked the sound of the steel on those old uncool songs or else you would not be here ...end of story