Our Instrument / Scrap Heap of the Uncool

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Dec 2005 11:59 am

Herb, thanks for a wonderfully worded and perfectly clear interpretation of what I observed.

JW - go back and read the post again - I said this statement:

"I truly belierve you can get the same sound out of a 49 dollar wal-mart 6 stringer, with a very cheap amp.""

...was ignorant.

And what are my "beliefs" that you are talking about? If you would be specific perhaps we could resolve something.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 30 December 2005 at 12:07 PM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 30 Dec 2005 12:13 pm

----------------------------------- Joe[This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 30 December 2005 at 12:19 PM.]

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 30 Dec 2005 12:17 pm

Great post Herb.

"but few ever post on this Forum because they feel intimidated by what goes on here"

That's about the saddest and maddening thing I've ever read on this forum.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 30 Dec 2005 12:20 pm

Jim- Curly Chalker was an amazing player played not only country but amazing jazz (there was a time when the two styles were pretty closely related, before marketing and other forces came into play...). You might want to get the DVD Mike Perlowin will be issuing soon; and I would also suggest the "Nevada Breaks" tape available here in the CD section- there is some mighty fine jazz playing on that one, although you can't go wrong with any of his recordings (if you can find them).

It may sound absolutely crazy, but a friend of mine studied with a great musician who told him "listen to player X". He did, came back a week later and said "Well, I listened, but I don't like it".

The teacher said "Listen to it until you like it!"

Guess what- it worked!

YMMV Big time...

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 30 Dec 2005 1:06 pm

HERB: I should probably shut up, but I just want to get a handle on what Marlin wrote, since I didn't see anything slanderous, insulting, indicative of "low self-esteem," or immature in Jim's or Steinar's posts that would cause Marlin to pick up his marbles and go home.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Marlin: Marlin: Since you?ve asked; It seems as if people rush to judgments on postings without thought or regard to fully understanding the content or some feel they should take on the responsibility to act as a mediator. I haven?t taken my marbles home; I?m here to give you more than a handle, and to clearly dispel the ugly innuendo that you have recklessly brought to the topic of race.

Slift?s slanderous, insulting comments are where he is suggesting, ?I will likely never listen to anything outside of the box.? That I suggested RR ?can?t play a steel? and finally suggesting I should ?get a grip?
Sorry you missed all that Herb; it was right in front of you to read.

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HERB: you acknowledge, in statements gleaned from both your posts, that (1) RR can play the steel guitar, but he's not "a steel player"

Marlin; I stand by that statement Herb, but I never knocked his playing. My observation of RR is; he is playing steel thus, does not make him a steel player in the traditional sense. That has been my premise from the beginning; rooted in tradition.

HERB: (2) that Buddy, Paul, and a lot of members of the Forum ARE steel players.This would imply that?

Marlin: Whoa! Here we go again with the psychoanalyzing of ?implying?.
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HERB: (3) if a musician plays traditional music on the steel, he is a "steel player." But (4) if the music being played is NOT traditional, then the musician is PLAYING A STEEL GUITAR, but has not earned the designation "steel player," regardle
ss of his proficiency playing the music he's chosen to play.

Marlin: Yes Herb, you are somewhat correct. Furthermore, to make (for the lack of a better term) noise on ANY instrument does not ?earn? that a person the designation of ?said instrument? player?of course ?regardless of their proficiency? is clearly you adding on to your analysis or should I say ?you?r
e now the one implying? but I think you do have to reach a certain level of proficiency before you can be called a ?player? of any instrument.
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HERB: Since few, if any, "steel players" on the Forum have the proficiency of Buddy or Paul, technique or ability to play is not the primary determining factor.

Marlin: Actually Herb, there are more than quite a ?few? players on this forum that can ?play? at that level. What sets Buddy, Paul and others apart is their ability to create something new. So proficiency and creativeness can go hand in hand but for the most part, there are more than a few players that can grab those licks, phrasing, tone etc?

HERB: Therefore, (5) it's the style of music being played that determines whether or not a musician is "a steel player."

Marlin: In the ?traditional? sense Herb, yes which has been my premise from the beginning and clearly stated in my first post.
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HERB: This is what I infer from your posts. Am I incorrect in feeling that's your opinion on the matter?

Marlin: More often than not Herb, your assessment is clearly wrong.

HERB: I also believe, reading Jim's and Steinar's responses, that is also what they understood from your writings. You of course are free to interpret their responses, and mine, as you wish.

Marlin: My writings have been interpreted (incorrectly) but wait Herb, there?s more.
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HERB: This position would of course
imply that to a devotee of classical music, Andres Segovia is a "guitarist," while Allan Holdsworth, just as an example, "plays a guitar."

Marlin: Herb?Jimmy Page played some steel on a Led Zeppelin stage and he also had a Tele with a B Bender and we?re talking way before it was popular to have a B Bender in a guitar. This doesn?t make Jimmy page a steel player, but just a guy who played some stuff on a steel. As far as comparing Holdsworth to Segovia on the same level, yes, when listening to both, Holdsworth clearly is just a guy playing a guitar while Segovia ?is? a guitarist.
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HERB: There are many, many young players of steel guitar, generally young African-Americans, who read this Forum voraciously and religiously. They buy our instructional material and know how to play "country style." I guess that they'd qualify as "steel players," but few ever post on this Forum because they feel intimidated by what goes on here.

Marlin: First Herb, I would like to know where you got your research on African-Americans with regard to the forum and the ?intimidated? factor. I have to ask; what is your motive for stating that? Please, bring a point of reference not hearsay to a subject as sensitive and important as that. I?m sure many would like to look at that research to help us understand to help expand the steel guitar community.
I would never discourage any person regardless of race, age, economic background, ability, musical preference, etc? to play steel guitar. To once again set the record straight, I never knocked RR, his playing or his music. I simply said he was a guy that played steel AND I made a reference to a fiddle and a journalist. That?s all there was to it. It had nothing to do with RR or African-Americans on the Forum. I fully believe you bringing that issue into this discussion is completely out of line. In case you haven?t noticed, I live in Atlanta where nearly 60% of the metro is African-American.
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HERB: So much for the "brotherhood of steel guitar," right? A concept I've never felt comfortable with, incidentally. I've known lots of steel players that I'm decidedly not "in brotherhood" with.

Marlin: I can understand your position and I could easily take your ?brotherhood of steel? statement out of context and decide exactly how you feel and think, put a spin on it, then post it on the forum regardless if I was correct or not.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 30 Dec 2005 1:10 pm

Brilliant post as usual, Herb.

My apologies to Jim Sliff for my remark about "dismissing Curly Chalker".

I missed the post where Jim aparantly said something about "whoever that is" and I had the idea that the reporter had said it, and to me a reporter doing a report on the steel guitar should have done some research and found out who Curly Chalker was.

I know that Jim Sliff is fairly new to the pedal steel and therefore it makes sense he would not know all the "founding fathers".

By the way, as someone said, Curly "didn't just play country".... in fact he preferred jazz and more progressive styles OVER country. As I've said before, we became close friends in the '80's and I loved him like a brother besides having utmost respect for his musicianship. So pardon my knee-jerk reaction to "whoever he is".

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Dec 2005 3:15 pm

No problem Jim. I kind of thought that might be where you were coming from. I'm going to try to dig up some Curly Chalker stuff and give it a whirl.

Marlin - Your "in the traditional sense" statements are what I view as a bit closed-minded. Holdsworth isn't a guitar player? Sorry, sir, but you know very little about that man, who I know personally, and is probably as technically gifted and deep in his knowledge of the instrument as Segovia - but again...he *plays a different style*.

What, pray tell, IS your "tradition"? And WHY do you seem to need to compare players from outside that tradition to players IN it? Apples and Oranges again. The unsaid part in my view is that you view "traditional" as "country" and anyone outside that as somehow or another not on the same level...using your terms, not a "player", but someone who just "plays".

That, sir, is ludicrous, inflammatory and insulting to players outside *your* traditions - which do not apply to anyone but you.

And buddy, could you lose all the question marks in your typing? The apostrophe is on the little key up and to the right...

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 30 Dec 2005 3:28 pm

My observation of RR is; he is playing steel thus, does not make him a steel player in the traditional sense.

Playing steel guitar in the "Sacred Steel" genre has been a long standing tradition, therefore....

... or is this one of those 'Country is the only real steel guitar music' discussions.

Terry

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Dec 2005 3:33 pm

"or is this one of those 'Country is the only real steel guitar music' discussions."

Looks that way.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 30 Dec 2005 3:35 pm

Marlin - I don't intend to be either condescending or sarcastic here - but when an opinion is repeatedly misinterpreted or misunderstood, it's usually a good idea to take a closer look at how that opinion is delivered instead of simply bashing those who misinterpret/misunderstand.

That's about as polite as I can put it, and the last I have to say in this ridiculous and totally unnecessary controversy.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 30 Dec 2005 3:42 pm

I was honored that San MacDonald quoted my email to him and I just sent him a thank you email. To me Buddy Emmons is to be defended as the father of pedal steel guitar. He has done so much the instrument. Literally devoting his life, sweat, and blood to it. He will go down in the history of pedal steel guitar more than anyone else as the pivitol force that linked generations of steel guitar players together and drove the instrument into new genres that were before unheard to pedal steel guitar. I like Robert Randolphs playing alot and wish nothing but great succes at what he is doing. I'd pay to see him any time.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 30 Dec 2005 3:47 pm

I take exception to the idea that a person must play traditional country music in order to be called a "steel player." The steel is NOT a country instrument, it is a musical instrument capable of being played in many styles and genres. The fact that it is used primarily in country music is a cultural phenominion and has nothing to do with what the instrument can or can't do, or what styles of music it can or can't play.

To suggest that only country players qualify as real steel players is as arrogant and ignorant a statement as the one that started this whole thread.
[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 30 December 2005 at 03:48 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Dec 2005 3:47 pm

Steinar - I know what the problem is. We both started out on Alto Sax. It completely destroyed our young minds. I know something is wrong with me - I keep seeing question marks. Everywhere.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 30 Dec 2005 3:53 pm

I'm with Mike P, his last post.

Also, applause for Tony Prior, Kevin Hatton and all of you who sent courteous and reasonable emails to the reporter, resulting in his new article. Well done.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 30 Dec 2005 3:58 pm

Sam covered a lot of territory in a short space, possibly to make up for an article featuring only one steeler. I think he did a good job in several paragraphs.

But I'm wondering if our protesting doesn't give rise to defensiveness on the part of sacred steelers.

I guess that they'd qualify as "steel players," but few ever post on this Forum because they feel intimidated by what goes on here.

In a way, I can see the point, merely trying to do something different myself. That doesn't bother me, I'm used to going against the wind.
But I think that having sacred steel tunings and copeds on b0b's page gives legitimacy to it as an identifiable style--and style is really the question here, as Herb put very well.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 30 Dec 2005 4:01 pm

I would think all the flaps over RR would be enough that they'd not want to join. I've even received emails from some steel players who are not SS players who've told me they don't want to join because of all the "know-it-alls" here. Their words, not mine...

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 30 Dec 2005 4:08 pm

get a grip guys...it's no wonder we have wars, i mean, right here we have guys who obviously love music and play the same instrument who would rather argue about some pretty petty $#!T than just let everybody express what they want. last time i checked it was a free country. get over yourselves man and get to picking...

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 30 Dec 2005 4:12 pm

sorry for my last post, i didn't realize i was reading page 4 and not page 5, my apologies. the online apology is great...

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 30 Dec 2005 4:16 pm

Herb that line should be bronzed and hung someplace.

"I've found the steel guitar world to be full of "renaissance men."
That is, those whose thinking is rooted somewhere in the 15th century"

Mike P, great post!

Happy?New Year Yall

Rick

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 30 Dec 2005 4:33 pm

Journalist must fill space with information to be considered journalist. Do they get it wrong sometimes? No __ usually.

Ken Yates · Post by **Ken Yates** » 30 Dec 2005 4:37 pm

After sitting and reading all this , I think b0b should lock this thread up and let all cool off a bit, coffee, tea, soda break or something.
MO
Ken

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Derby SD 10,,,Nashville 112,,,Hilton,,,RV-3

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 30 Dec 2005 5:45 pm

I'm sending a donation to the forum to start the new year right. Although I stand by by statements I appreciate the opportunity to express them. If in my attempt to set the record straight of my viewpoint and it upset anyone, to you I say I'm sorry.
Happy New Year.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 30 Dec 2005 6:23 pm

BTW, In 1984, I attended my first convention. That was also the year King Sunny Ade's " Juju Music" LP (now available on CD) that featured Demola Adepoju's pedal steel playing was released.

I told people at the convention about it, and they all seemed to think I was hallucinating. A couple of people made remarks using the N word

In '86 I went back, and this time I brought a tape. I played them for Buddy Emmons who loved it and made Jimmy Crawford come over and listen. But few others even wanted to know about it or were willing to listen.

In '88, I brought Demola himself as my guest. (He loved it.) And people STILL couldn't deal with it. One person took me aside and said "He doesn't really play does he?" and again, some people made remarks that contained that same word.

Here it is over 20 years later, and many steelers are stull unaware of the use of the steel guitar (both pedal and non pedal) in African music.

Some have said they didn't care for this music. That's fair. We all have our individual tastes. But I think many of us really need to be more aware of different kinds of music.

(edited for spelling and typos only, not for content.)[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 30 December 2005 at 09:16 PM.]

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 30 Dec 2005 6:34 pm

Mike P.... lots of truth in your post. 'Til we stop thinking about the pedal steel as a by-product of country music and recognize it as a creative tool for all styles of music, we will continue to hinder it's growth and acceptance.

How can we expect the rest of the music world to accept it as a bona fide instrument if we insist on isolating it to one specific area as players? Methinks, some of us don't want it's scope widened much.

Remember Tom Bradshaw's article on stereotyping? Jeff Newman also made a plea in one of his newsletters to be more open-minded. 30 yrs.later, we're still not much closer.

Noone has the right or authority to tell anyone else what style music they should play on the instrument or make the determination as to whether or not it is valid.
That we don't like a music style doesn't change the fact that others do.

If we can't support the instrument by endorsing a style different from what we are used to, the least we can do is not impede someone else's effort.

Michael Breid · Post by **Michael Breid** » 30 Dec 2005 6:57 pm

I will give up my steel only when they pry it from my cold, dead, fingers.