Playing live without amps

John Ciano · Post by **John Ciano** » 16 Dec 2005 4:49 pm

I like to hear some experiences and opinions about playing directly into the sound system and monitoring the band and
the steel only in head phones.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 16 Dec 2005 5:08 pm

I think they call it "unplugged" when you lose your 100 watt amp, and plug into a 400,000 watt PA.

Ron Victoria · Post by **Ron Victoria** » 16 Dec 2005 5:08 pm

John,
I thought I knew all the NJ players. Where have you been hiding? Maybe we haven't crossed paths because I'm a lap player.
Ron

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Dec 2005 6:20 pm

Well, I suppose if I had to do that...

I'd just pack up my steel and go home.

I can think of nothing more unpleasant than to have to rely on a highly-knobbed, but rather limited (most of them are) PA set and the dodo running it for everything I hear.

The local bands I've seen who attempt the "ear-bud and headphone monitor routine" of the big acts have failed miserably to get a good, well-mixed, cohesive sound. In fact, most of the big Nashville acts I've seen using this silly stuff fail to impress me.

(Oh, they think they sound great! If they only knew what everyone else was hearing.)

John Ciano · Post by **John Ciano** » 16 Dec 2005 6:28 pm

Hi Ron, I'm sure you have heard of me. My stage name is Ben Lawson

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Ron Victoria · Post by **Ron Victoria** » 16 Dec 2005 6:30 pm

Geez, I thought Ben was your real name. What do you have a name for each neck.

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 16 Dec 2005 7:47 pm

I've used in-ear monitors and no amp for 3 or 4 years in the church where I play, and I sure wouldn't want to go back to an amp and all the volume competition on stage. I totally disagree with Donny, there are good sound men out there. Our FOH engineer is my son, and some of the first sounds he ever heard was the steel guitar, and he knows how it should sound, as well as all the other instruments in the band. He also runs our recording studio, and he knows what he's doing there too.

We record the music from every service to hard disk, so I know what the audience is hearing, and I am very pleased with it. I have sent live CD's of our group to a lot of members of this forum, and I think they would agree.

I use a Digitech 2112 preamp / effects processer, and a Countryman direct box. I use a Shure PSM600 wireless in-ear system with Shure E5 earphones.

About a year ago we installed Aviom personal mixing systems for each musician. Our system provides 16 channels for the musicians to control their own monitor mix. It works great, I can hear what I want to hear, and turn off what I don't.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Sidney Ralph Penton · Post by **Sidney Ralph Penton** » 16 Dec 2005 8:02 pm

well i have a pa system and i have experimented playing through it and it sounds pretty good. you can put some effects on it or make it plan jane. but you have to be carefull not to drownd out the singer if they are using the same pa system. thanks doc

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Dec 2005 8:11 pm

For some of our smaller gigs, I've been running my Pod XT directly into the PA. I monitor in headphones (I'm the "sound man" too) and it works okay. Musicians in the audience tell me that the steel sounds great.

It's not real satisfying, though. There's something about controlling an amp and listening to the sound in the open air. On one gig I took a little old Fender Princeton, ran the Pod into that and miked it. Just enough sound for the "unplugged" stage without headphones. It was really nice.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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John Ciano · Post by **John Ciano** » 16 Dec 2005 8:14 pm

Hi Darvin, Well your post gives me hope because my experience is Donny's worst nightmare. I play with in-ear monitors with my country band and thank God I get to play in church with my amps to remind me that I can play with beautiful tone, taste, and emotion. The lack of control , the sterility, the awful tone of my p/p Emmons in my headset, and the inability to find the pocket makes playing under these conditions a painful experience for me. I go directly from my Pro-Fex into the system. Your set-up seems to be well thought out.

J W Alexander · Post by **J W Alexander** » 17 Dec 2005 2:56 am

With today's in-ear monitoring systems this sort of "no amps on stage" thing is becoming more and more prevelant. On-stage volume wars are eliminated and once the adjustment is made the audience is treated to a slightly "better" performance. I install a lot of large sound systems in churches who are incorporating contemporary worship and the number one concern is "how loud is this going to be--will we be running people out?" When a musician can plainly hear themselves at the volume and EQ levels they prefer they tend to play with more feeling and emotion and less sheer volume. How many of us have shared a stage with someone who needs a mix that overwhelms everyone else?

The in-ear and pre-amp only set up is NOT ideal because there is something wonderful about air being moved by an amplifier. Who can resist the fullness of a high-powered amp pushing a few speakers in a large space? Then again, whether a small club or church too much is too much and it only serves to alienate our audience. Singers often rightfully complain of high stage volumes creating problems. In the case where a singer IS the "problem" in-ear monitors solve a lot of their concerns, too.

It's a matter of getting used to what's new in live performance technology. Ask anyone who's dealing with hearing losses from too many years on the road with too-loud bands!!

J W

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 17 Dec 2005 2:56 am

The hot concept in live playing at the moment is "the silent Stage". No backline; screens round the drums; guitar amps, if any, in isolated cabinets backstage. Everyone using in ear monitors.
The real top sound men in Europe write this up as the best sound ever.
On the other hand, they are the top sound men and know how to send a correct monitor mix to each performer.
Monitor controlling is much harder than Front of house sound. A straight headphone feed will normally be no use to a steel player. It will need some compression so you can hear the pick action, and the way the harmonics and beats fall into line on a slide or bend. You will need some artificial reverb so you know how your notes are sustaining in the Hall, and then you'll need to be able to hear what the rest of the band are doing- tone does not matter for that.
That's assuming you are playing clean- it's a bit more complicated if you are actually using effects.
Once you are happy with the way your sound in the monitors, you just have to live with the fact that it is the FOH sound man's job to decide on and set the sound for the audience. If he (or she) is any good they will know what you play and how it ought to sound- if they are not somebody is at the wrong gig.
My college produces three or four good sound engineers every year- about the same number of composers, performers, studio engineers, producers etc...and one or two hopeless dreamers too, to be honest. I can't believe that there are no similar organisations in the USA. Look for experienced students needing work experience, and get someone on the desk who knows what it's for.

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Cheers!
Dave

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 17 Dec 2005 6:33 am

"I like to hear some experiences and opinions about playing directly into the sound system and monitoring the band and
the steel only in head phones"

I have not done it with steel, but several times with guitar and many times with bass.

Bass works the best. Using a Bass Sansamp you can "survive". But the tone suffers.

With guitar, it's garbage. Whether a Samsamp, POD, or other amp emulator, tone goes away, projection suffers, and the "feel" for the player evaporates.

The only one "direct inject" helps is the incompetent soundman who doesn't know how to mix or place stage baffles and monitors properly. I played a regular large church gig for 15 years, and when we bough a new Allen & Heath board and various other high-level equipment, the "consultant" insisted everything go direct. That lasted about two months before he was fired and I was back to my Tweed Deluxe and 35-watt Holland, properly miked with baffles to buffer the front-row folks.

My job is not to provide the easiest solution to the sound engineer - my job is to work cordially with him, but mainly get good sound and playing to the audience. Forcing tone to suffer for technical convenience is asinine.

Ben Lawson · Post by **Ben Lawson** » 17 Dec 2005 6:42 am

My stage name is John Ciano but I never told anyone that until that other guy spilled his guts out.

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 17 Dec 2005 6:43 am

Been there, done that, hated it.

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden guitars, 70's Fender Twin, etc.

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 17 Dec 2005 7:24 am

I agree with Jim. Our church went "direct" a year ago and it was a disaster. Just like eveybody is a "singer", the attitude became everybody is a "soundman". The final straw came when they made the choir director's wife the "sound person"...that's the Sunday I walked off the stage and never went back. When you move into a studio type environment (equipment wise) you need professional personnel operating the equipment. Who of us would go to a recording studio, pay big $$$, and have the janitor as the sound engineer!!!???

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 17 Dec 2005 7:08 pm

Boy, I didn't realize that soundmen were so hated. I think all the name calling is a little much. They probably have a dim view of steel players who think they are the featured soloist too.

As someone already mentioned, I think its just a matter of getting used to new technology. If I remember right, Buddy Emmons even did some direct recording on some of his albums, it didn't make him sound like (insert some previously described sounds here).

I thought my setup sounded pretty good, but evidently I don't know anything about good sound, after hearing from all the 'sound' experts.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 17 Dec 2005 7:32 pm

What I want to know is who is the real Ben Ciano and who is John Lawson ?
Brendan not really Mitchell

Don Barnhardt · Post by **Don Barnhardt** » 17 Dec 2005 9:11 pm

Times have changed. When I started playing the sound system was one mike and a low powered amp with a volume and tone control knob for the singer. I haven't had the pleasure(?) of trying these techniques you guys are talking about. Sound equipment is so hi tek these days it really takes an engineer to run it. a good sound man is worth his weight in gold I've never had the good fortune to meet one. Until I do they can mike my amp.

John Ciano · Post by **John Ciano** » 17 Dec 2005 9:28 pm

Darvin, Not that I believe it

but I remember reading an article by a sound engineer for the Grateful Dead who said,
(and I am taking tremendous liberties with my paraphrase) That whatever intellegence it takes to understand ohms and watts and wires and knobs $:\$ "filters out any ability to distiguish between a Stratavarious and a garbage can being kicked down a flight of stairs".

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Dec 2005 9:35 pm

...you just have to live with the fact that it is the FOH sound man's job to decide on and set the sound for the audience.

And therein (aside from the lack of "liveliness" that others mention) lies the problem with this setup. You're "stuck" with your sound once you've started. No more turning around in the middle of the song and changing the tone, or reverb settings. Nope! So, you set sound with an empty house, and now it's filled up, and your sound's changed. Tough nougies! Do the whole show or set with those undesirable settings, and maybe you'll get a chance to change them in an hour or two.

How Stupid Can We Get???

Now we have to hide our amps??? What moron decided that was a good idea??? I don't care if he's the best sound man in the business, I've seen some of these big shows, and the sound sucked.

Yes, it sucked!

I'm all for a change if it improves the sound, but I've yet to have them amaze me.

Of course, I'm not distracted by all the other bull$#!& like most other folks. Nope, all them flashing lights, lasers, moving stages, pyrotechnics, smoke machines, and acrobatic singers will prevent me from really listening. That's what I do best.

Fancy show, sucky sound. Yep, that about sums up most of these big concert "audio abortions".

Okay, that rant's done.

And, in parting, I'd just like to add that all you guys that play in a church, and can't control your volumes, ought to be ashamed of yourselves! If you can control the volume in your own house (and I'm sure you can, or wifey woulda' kicked you out long ago), you oughta' be able to control it anywhere.

If worse comes to worse, fire the drummer, bassman, and demand the lead player go acoustic.

That'll do the trick! (LOL!)

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 17 Dec 2005 9:59 pm

Well, there are several sides to this... Personally I've had it with guitarists or bass players who start the gig at "3" and finish it at "5" - often inspired by more than a few beers...

I've done a couple of gigs where the whole band went direct through good preamps - one was a ballett so it was crucial that as little stage sound as possible was heard by the audience - and they're the most comfortable gigs I've ever done.

I don't mind using the POD direct when there's a high quality PA/monitoring system/sound crew present, but for the small club gigs I still prefer a small amp on stage since the house system usually is so-so and if there is a soundman in the house he's often drunk..... (btw, one soundman told me that only ONE pint of beer will reduce your ability to hear the high frequencies by quite a few db's. I believe him...)

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

John Ciano · Post by **John Ciano** » 17 Dec 2005 10:10 pm

Thanks Darvin, volume wars is why we are in this situation in the first place. It amazes
me how good players have no concept about fitting in to create the band sound. They play out of the pocket,and forget that there are other soloists. Drummers playing with sticks as big as baseball bats and rhythm guitarists that play like enthusiastic fourth graders are what set the stage volume. The lead section (steel guitar,fiddle, lead guitar) now have to try to weave in between the rhythm section and the vocal and there is very little head room between the two, so now the lead section is too loud.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 18 Dec 2005 1:34 am

Not me. I like the sound of an overdriven amp with Celestion speakers.

Ben Lawson · Post by **Ben Lawson** » 18 Dec 2005 5:38 am

I was in the band that John is in now and I
know how he feels. We're not picking on the sound guys in general, but the one's John is with ain't country. I went to hear John Wed. night and the sound from the mains was muddy. John said his headset was piercing.
Chris, the guy who runs the mains was the sound man for Blood Sweat and Tears. Tom the monitor guy is in his early 20's and I imagine he doesn't know too much about Ray Price or Gene Watson. Put that all together and you have an idea of what John is up against. Thats part of why I left that band.
Yours truly, John Lawson Ben Ciano a.k.a. duh?!****