Music Theory - ?

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 5 Oct 2005 7:49 pm

If a steel guitarist can't read music and is a slave to Tabs or his/her Ear........what good is Music THEORY? Would like to hear it from knowledgeable people...... Thank you.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Oct 2005 8:06 pm

To me, it's just a theory, and until it passes into law, like Gravity, I'll define my own level of abeyance accordingly, limiting any danger of slavery..

EJL

Garth Highsmith · Post by **Garth Highsmith** » 5 Oct 2005 8:24 pm

.[This message was edited by Garth Highsmith on 12 January 2006 at 09:44 AM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 5 Oct 2005 8:31 pm

I agree with Garth. But, having said that, theory has helped me learn to play beautiful things that my ear alone couldn't have conceived.
-John

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 5 Oct 2005 8:42 pm

Does one need to KNOW music; able to read it, for the theory to have any significant meaning to him/her? Can he apply theory before he/her can read it and understand the names of the notes of each string/ each fret?THANKS!

If a person can't pick out the tune RED RIVER VALLEY or 3-blind (visually challenged)
mice/meeses........and recognize that he is playing wrong/incorrect notes, does theory help this?

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 5 Oct 2005 9:09 pm

Ray, if they meant to play it, then it wasn't a wrong note.

(That's the Thelonious Monk Theory. There are many.)
-John

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 5 Oct 2005 9:13 pm

Ray, Garth said it well.
No you need not KNOW music thoery to read well and play well.

Many classical musicians are killer sight readers,
BUT CAN'T IMPROVISE ON A CHORD SHEET TO SAVE THEIR LIVES.
That's why they need composers to write it out for them.

On the other hand some jazz players read OK on melody lines,
and even transpose on the fly ( hornplayers),
but maybe not at the speed of the classical players.

YET they can wing it off of a complex set of changes,
just by seeing the chord names and meter markings.

The theory they have applied works in their benifit.
The less trained player JUST sees the notes,
and not the LOGIC behind them.

Music theory is an explanation of the LOGIC of music.
But not just one direction of music, but ALL directions.

Think of it as a roadmap (point A to B), overlaid on a topographical map (why the routes were put there),
overlaid on different ladsat photos (actual songs)

I am dyslexic, so sometimes my sight reading is VERY poor, but if I am reading a lot, it picks up.

But because I have a pretty good theory base, I can sit in with just a chord grill and play most music. And pull out the occasional note writen hook or line etc, with no problem.

Applied to steel, I was able to take Trap Truly's C6 chord finder chart, and the Real Book,
and play jazz tunes in public 2 months after getting my D-10.
I attibute that to my use of music theory applied to a new instrument, the PSG.

YOu can ONCE you understand theory, throw it out the window and do something different, but it gives you a great place,
to THEN look farther... with understanding.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 5 Oct 2005 9:15 pm

The music theory most applicable to pedal steel guitar is Harmony and Interval Theory together with the Nashville Number System. Buddy Emmons and Jeff Newman have said this for years. Once you memorize the note intervals that make up scales and chords, you can theoreticlly play any instrument. Its just a matter of finding out how to make that note on that instrument. Also, once you understand the above you don't need tab. Why? Because the notes and chords being played on a recording will reveal themselves to you moment to moment in your head. This is why covering pre-recorded music (cover band) with my band is so easy because we all understand harmony and interval theory and the Nashville Number System. Notes on a music sheet is not music theory. Players who understand this can reproduce pre-recorded arrangements very fast. Intro, verse, chorus, solos, and so on. Tabs don't teach you music. By the way, ear training is most important also.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 October 2005 at 10:15 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 October 2005 at 10:17 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Oct 2005 10:12 pm

There is a difference between being able to read music and being able to sight read. Sight reading means you look at a piece of music and can instantly play it. it's a valuable skill, but not necessary to understand music theory.

What IS necessary to understand music theory is the ability to look at a note and recognise it's letter name. Conventional notation is the written language of ther science of music theory. Trying to grasp the concepts without knowing the written symbols is like trying to understand arithmetic without knowing how to read numbers.

Learning to recognose the letter names that correspond to the written symbols is not difficult or mysterious. Yet for some reason, some people think it's rocket science, or that if they learn how to read they will forget how to play by ear.

Once again, I remind you all that I've written a book on music theory that's published by Mel Bay Publications, and a supplement for the pedal steel guitar, and I'll send the file of the supplements for free to anybody who wants it. (Note- the steel guitar supplement is utterly useless by itself. It HAS TO be used in conjunction with the book.)

But be forwarned, you HAVE TO learn to read music, at least to the extent that you can recognise the letter names, in order to get anything from the book. There's no getting around it.

The first lesson in the book specifically teaches this.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 5 Oct 2005 10:19 pm

I thank each of you for your contribution. It has been an eye-opener for this olde codger. Muchly appreciated.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 6 Oct 2005 5:03 am

Recently, I have taken a begining and intermediate music theory class at night.

It is valuable to me. I don't have such a "good ear" (lack of practice). It is difficult and time consuming to pick out anything more than simple 3 note chords. Even if I thought that I picked out the music by ear, I was not playing it accurately because my ear couldn't discern the music accurately.

Now that I can read notation and understand the relationships of notes, chords, intervals, and scales, I have a road map of how to get there. I can look at sheet music and learn the tune, correctly.

From that point, I can let my ear take over, and it has improved my ear.

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 6 Oct 2005 5:14 am

Just a thought, you can become a slave to theory if you overdo it. I have a friend who is a world class guitar player, but he analyses every note he plays, and he has studied modal playing to excess, in my opinion. Every thing he plays is theoretically correct, but some times the notes do not sound good in the context of the song.

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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum SD12U, Carter D10 8/8, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3, DD-3, Fender Steel King, Understanding wife. http://www.Charmedmusic.com

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 6 Oct 2005 7:11 am

More theoryphobia. Look at it this way. Since you probably know how all the bell cranks and pull rods and fingers and compensators work together to create sound, shouldn't you know how the notes work together to make music?

Howard Kalish · Post by **Howard Kalish** » 6 Oct 2005 7:24 am

I couldn't resist adding a comment so we'd have 3 Howards in a row.

Though reading music is helpful, it's not necessary for understanding music theory. I rarely have to read music in the bands I play in, but I use theory all the time to come up with harmony parts or to understand a chord progression and the notes that work or wont work within the progression. I think most improvising musicians understand theory to varying degrees and the best ones have internalized it so that they're not thinking about it, but using their ears and instinct to create solo and fill passages.

Music theory allows a player to see the inner workings of the music, which I find fascinating.

HK

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 6 Oct 2005 7:30 am

So many things that I'm intersted in getting a handle on simply are not tabbed out for Pedal Steel Guitar (fwiw, I find "tab" to be a cruel and unusual punishment for someone just trying to have fun playing a musical instrument

, but I've trudged though a bunch of 'em over the years).

While I don't sight read to PSG, I have been able to pic out and understand several musical passages I was interested in figuring out by way of applicable music theory.

As John says, "...things that my ear alone couldn't have conceived".

Most recently for me, Irving Berlins "Russian Lullaby".

Wow, that one has some cool chords, and lays nicely on Pedal steel!

Pete B.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 6 Oct 2005 7:35 am

In almost all cases, more knowledge beats less knowledge -- hands down -- and this is no exception.

I read music, but it is more like 'See Spot Run' -- one note at a time -- find it on the guitar and move on. Music theory tells me WHERE ON THE GUITAR TO LOOK FOR THAT NOTE. If a player understands what a major scale is and where to find it, he/she is a little bit closer to finding the notes being sought. If that player understands the many ways in which a major scale can be used -- not just to play over major chords, but over minor 7 chords or even diminished chords -- the more that player is freed from the bounds of tablature.

It is really difficult to improvise if you don't know the rules. Music theory provides a player with those ground rules.

That's MY THEORY, anyway.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Oct 2005 7:42 am

Ray, to me, good music is good music. Being just a 2nd class "bar-room picker", I couldn't tell you exactly what "theory" is, other than it being a way to explain why you're doing what you're doing. I know ability when I hear it, though, and as long as you're producing good sounds, it doesn't matter (to me) if you if you can't describe what you're doing in notation.

Ideally, I guess a master musician would be equally adept at improvising or playing from notation, but it seems that very few are "masters" at both.

Pity.

I know very little about music, but I do know that when the song calls for a suspended 4th, I can't find any other chord that will sub for it and still sound right. I also know that you don't need any flat-5 or sharp-9 chords to play "Cheating Heart".

That's a start, I guess.

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 6 Oct 2005 8:17 am

I love what Larry Bell said above in his opening sentence.

When I was younger, an incredible musician who both read music and played by ear told me..."Learn all you can and then forget about it and just play". Sure, that statement can be interpreted several ways and I think I've ended up interpreting it several ways since I first heard it (kinda like circular evolution). I personally feel reading and studying what's been done before any of us suspected anything is a real benefit. Most of us study other steel players and there are certainly a lot of instructional materials on the market that are taken advantage of, but just imagine if our instrument had been in it's present form for hundreds of years. How far would the pedal steel be by now? Studying, whether it's music notation or tab or just ear is...learning (what Larry said).

Reading or studying music theory concepts won't make your tone better or even improve your hand techniques in and of itself, but it could be a valuable tool for learning. I don't use everything I ever studied nor do I even like some of the stuff I studied, but I do know that these experiences have certainly influenced my directions.

Anyhow...what Larry said.

Mike[This message was edited by Miguel e Smith on 06 October 2005 at 09:19 AM.]

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 6 Oct 2005 8:28 am

Theory and reading are not the same thing. I could read music early on thanks to some great guitar teachers. Learning the whys of music is theory. Why does this chord go here, why does this note go there, that is theory. It is harder to learn theory without reading, but it can be done.
Performing is the application of all your life experiences, including theory,knowledge,age, your day job, the fact that your grass needs cutting,etc, and communicating your own self thru music. JP

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 6 Oct 2005 8:31 am

Mike, I orderd your book from Scotty.I hope it's in more simple terms than some of the stuff I've read about Music Theory on the web. If not, then I'm in trouble.

would you please send me the file? Thanks

Donny, since I'm just starting to try and learn a little about Music Theory, give me a head start here. What's a suspended 4th?

Terry

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Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 06 October 2005 at 09:35 AM.][This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 06 October 2005 at 09:40 AM.]

Whip Lashaway · Post by **Whip Lashaway** » 6 Oct 2005 8:34 am

There is a large difference between reading music and understanding theory. I don't read music at all (as far as using it to play). However, understanding theory makes playing so much more enjoyable because you know what's happening. It will give you a roadmap for music. When learning a new song it gives structure to your attempt at playing it. You know where to look (within reason) and if you understand (or have a working knowledge of) your instrument you know where to start. Knowing your instrument is vital. Know your scales and how they will give you a route of travel into and out of chords. Know how chords are formed and when they are appropriate. For me it is all about numbers not letters. The name of the key the song is in is the last I think about letters. The letter gives me a starting point and it becomes 1 after that.

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Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
78' Emmons D10 P/P

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 6 Oct 2005 8:41 am

I believe reading music is greatest tool for learning you can have. It will allow you to teach yourself.

I have developed my own system for reading on steel. I see the notes on the staff as intervals above or below whatever the key signature dictates. For example, if the song is in C, I know middle C is the first line below the staff. If the note is on the lines above they are the odd intervals, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th. If it is on the spaces above it is the even intervals, 2nd, 4th, 6th, then octave. These intervals are reversed going backwards. The lines back of middle C are 6th, 4th, 2nd, while the spaces are odd numbered, 7th, 5th, 3rd, octave.

This may be a crude way of reading but it lets me get through whatever I'm trying to learn.

Mike, when you are reading a piece of music on piano, do you see intervals like this, or are you seeing the notes as their letter names?

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 6 Oct 2005 8:46 am

Ive always been a "lick learner", can read some notes and tab, but my ears can decipher most anything that i want to play. (as long as i have the technique to play what im hearing) 25+ yrs of stealing licks does help too.(probably not the easiest way to learn though) bob

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 6 Oct 2005 9:51 am

That's pretty interesting, Randy. I had not looked at it in that way before.

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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum SD12U, Carter D10 8/8, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3, DD-3, Fender Steel King, Understanding wife. http://www.Charmedmusic.com

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 6 Oct 2005 10:03 am

I've found most all comments to be of tremendous value and I thank you; HOWEVER,
which comes first: (1)Reading music; (2)theory; (3)playing music; OR, in what order should one anticipate this procedure?