Need help with this Fender Dual Professional

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 3 Nov 2005 7:12 pm

Hi folks,
I need some help in evaluating the condition/value of this guitar.
I just got my Fender Dual Professional double 8-string that I won on an Ebay auction from the Guitar Center rep seller. I paid $690 for it, and it seemed like an okay deal as it appeared to be an early walnut guitar in pretty good condition. Now that I have it there are some issues I am concerned about, and I’m wondering what it is that I’ve actually got. There is not a Fender decal on the front. The wood looks nice, but there are rows of spots along the front of the guitar and along the edge of the bottom that look like wood filler (this seems weird. Maybe someone nailed a skirt along the edge? I can’t imagine why there would be a uniformed pattern of holes like this). I wonder if it’s been refinished. The finish looks like light lacquer, but there is no checking. Also, the body looks like three pieces: I thought that these were usually made from one slab of walnut. The guitar sounds pretty good, it’s got the trapezoid pickups, and I can see what looks like copper wire sandwiched between a wood spacer and a piece of clear plastic between the pickup and the cover piece. The Fender name badge looks like it was bent, there are some violent looking gouges in the switch plate and one of the bridge plates. There is some wear in the black painted fret markings, but there also looks like some traces of dark blue/indigo paint in a few places along the edge of the metal “fret board” The legs are from a company called Atlas, so I don’t think they are original, and the case that they sent it in is a cheap imitation Fender rectangular standard guitar case and really doesn’t work very well for this instrument. It’s a nice playing and sounding guitar—I’m surprised how small and light it is, the scale feels very short, but it’s easy to play. I’ve got a 48 hour inspection period before I can return it if I don’t like it, or I can request a price adjustment. I’m just wondering with all this stuff if this guitar is worth what I paid for it. Also, how can I get an idea of how old it is? The only number I see anywhere is on the jack plate, the number is 1930.

I’ve posted a bunch of photos of it here: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/cliffkane/album?.dir=/e264

It would be great if someone would take a look and help me evaluate this guitar.

I think this may be a job for the King of Tweed…King Carver, are you out there?

Thanks very much,
Cliff
[This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 03 November 2005 at 07:15 PM.]

Mark Vinbury · Post by **Mark Vinbury** » 3 Nov 2005 7:56 pm

Definitely a job for a Fender expert.
In my opinion as a woodworker---It looks more like the body is some type of Mahogany that was stained at one time but has been stripped and clearcoated.
The legs look like add-ons.Atlas made mic stands etc.
The filled holes are a mystery.Maybe it was attached to some other kind of stand before it had legs
I see Rick has a similar late 40's Walnut shown on his website http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgt/m1m3s3_1.htm
I like it.Looks like a good solid player.
I like instruments with some"history".
Since it is not the pristine example they advertised then I'd take a shot at a reduction in price.
Seems as though you like the way it sounds and plays. I'd keep it no matter what and if you paid a little extra just figure you'll get a deal on somthing else somewhere down the line.
[This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 03 November 2005 at 09:34 PM.][This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 04 November 2005 at 05:49 AM.]

John Pelz · Post by **John Pelz** » 3 Nov 2005 9:05 pm

how can I get an idea of how old it is?

Assuming it's the real deal (and yours certainly looks just like my '52 Dual Pro, Cliff, though the multiple-piece wood body certainly is curious to me, tho I'm no means a Fender expert-- Dr. Carver, paging Dr. Carver!), the assembly date should be written under the tuner-head pan on either one or both necks. (It's written on both necks of my '52 Dual Pro.)

My '52 Dual Pro has a serial number of 1784, tho I'm not sure that S/Ns were necessarily assigned in absolute sequential order. (See this thread.) My Dual Pro was assembled January 7, 1952. Hope this helps you some.[This message was edited by John Pelz on 03 November 2005 at 09:19 PM.]

Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 3 Nov 2005 9:47 pm

REMOVED

Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 3 Nov 2005 10:04 pm

REMOVED

Dan Sawyer · Post by **Dan Sawyer** » 4 Nov 2005 12:33 am

I would say it's a real Fender. Been refinished and that's when the decal came off. That does look like wood filler and who knows what those holes were for. Mic stands for legs is a common replacement and not neccesarily bad. Do they fit tight with no wobble?

If the guitar plays and sound good, maybe it's worth it to keep it and ask for a price reduction. A mint condition verison of this guitar would be more money than you paid. These are my favorite fender pickups. I prefer them to the Stringmasters.

Garry Vanderlinde · Post by **Garry Vanderlinde** » 4 Nov 2005 12:34 am

I’m no expert, but I’ve been looking at Walnut Dual Pros for a while and agree with the previous replies that this one really looks like a re-fin. No Fender decal on the front apron and the thin lacquer finish is a good indication.

If you really don’t like this guitar SEND IT BACK QUICKLY! You are lucky they have a return policy:
“Since this is an Instrument Exchange managed auction, you are entitled to a 48-hour inspection period. In the event that you need to make a return, Instrument Exchange's complaint arbitration service ensures that you are satisfied. You can either negotiate a discount or return the item for a refund.”

But if you like this guitar and you want to keep it, try to negotiate a more reasonable price fitting to the actual condition of this instrument.

They listed it as being in “Excellent” five-star condition, "Very clean showing little or no signs of use", which was a misnomer to say the least!

Vintage Guitar Magazine, in which Guitar Center advertises, states that “Excellent” condition is defined as;“Very clean, no wear, may be some minor finish and/or playing wear. All original parts and finish.”

This certainly doesn’t describe the guitar they sold to you!

At best you got a guitar in “Good” condition which Vintage Guitar Mag describes as;“Still playable, but may have modifications and or extensive playing wear.”

In the old “Vintage Guitar Price Guide” they say that a instrument in “GOOD CONDITION” could be valued at 25% to 45% of the same instrument in “EXCELLENT CONDITION”.

So do the math, but I would settle for a price under $500, IF you really wanted to keep this guitar and they are willing to deal with you.

Just my opinion...like I read another Formite say, "Your milage may vary".

[This message was edited by Garry Vanderlinde on 04 November 2005 at 12:45 AM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 4 Nov 2005 12:40 am

Cliff;
I in no way qualify as an expert, however; I have an opinion!

That is: You got what you paid for and a lot more! It's quite obvious to me that someone put forth a great effort to make this instrument acceptable to most people! Originality was never that important to me anyway. I want an instrument that l©©ks decent and functions as intended! It's obvious that the finish is not Original, the control~knobs are not Original, maybe even the volume and tone pots are not Original, the legs are definately not Original. Even the philips~screws are not Original! The spots that are spread over the body could be flaws in the wood or actual dings of some sort. The case is definately not Fender, but; it l©©ks quite serviceable! The use of (3)-pieces of wood for the body is normal! The guitar was obviously intended to have a painted finish. (most likely the Blonde/Butterscotch color) The Tuning~Wells l©©k to be in good condition as well as the rest of the hardware! I've learned from past experience that you should check under the strings over the Nut and Bridge and hope there are no deep grooves under the strings! That would be the only serious problem that I could imagine! Even grooves can be filled in and replated, if necessary! As far as I'm concerned, you got a very good deal and I think even the Knight of Fender Tweed would agree! (Although I can't speak for him!) If I bought it at the price you paid, I'd call it a bargin! KEEP IT! You mght have someone put a meter on it and measure the P/U's. They should average around 10,000 to 11,000 ohms each. If they are very weak, have Jason Lollar to rewind both of them at the same time. Fender replacement Chrome-Knobs are available from a Fender Dealer. The Original Pots are Volume = 250K Audio and Tone = 1Meg. Linear with .05uF cap. I hope this is encouraging to you and you really should KEEP IT and PLAY IT!

If you wish, you can E-Mail any time for more info.
------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 04 November 2005 at 10:04 AM.]

Garry Vanderlinde · Post by **Garry Vanderlinde** » 4 Nov 2005 1:01 am

"Big John" has a very good point. You could restore this guitar, get a decal for the front, v/t pots, probably a case for under $100 on ebay and be a very happy picker'

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 4 Nov 2005 4:39 am

If it were me,I would buy it in a New York
Minute.John Bechtel said it all. And most of all "KEEP IT"[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 04 November 2005 at 04:42 AM.]

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 4 Nov 2005 5:40 am

Cliff, listen to Jody and Big John and make the best of the situation. I don't know why Big John says he's not an expert, I guess he's just being modest. The truth is, the most remarkable restoration of these guitars I have ever seen took place under his auspices. I know, because I acquired a 49 Custom (the triple neck version) from him that looks, sounds and even smells like a brand new guitar. The pickups were rewound by Jason Lollar, the pots and wiring were all redone, the hardware was rechromed, new improved legs and sockets were installed, and it was expertly refinished in a lovely shade of pewter. From what I understand this guitar was in much worse condition than yours before restoration, and now it's a great sounding great looking instrument.

You can get exact replacement legs from Don Burrows wingingit@adelphia.net
Don is a perfectionist - he makes them right and tight. He also makes real nice cases.

Bobbe Seymour http://steelguitar.net has the Fender decals you need.

The gcrep gang is notorious for their shady eBay dealings and most people avoid them like the bubonic plague.
But with a little expense and effort, you could end up with a killer guitar. You should definitely press for a price adjustment to help cover the cost, because they clearly used deceptive and fraudulent representation of the guitar's condition.
They do that a lot.

RA[This message was edited by Rick Alexander on 04 November 2005 at 05:33 PM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 4 Nov 2005 10:17 am

Rick;
There are those great pictures again! Are you trying to make me home~sick? I'm really glad you're happy with the Custom! And thanks for the compliments! Jody taught me all I know!!!

Jody told me once that he wanted one that color, but; couldn't get one! So, I thought I'd tease him a little! If you ever want to sell, see Jody!! Ha~Ha!

------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 4 Nov 2005 10:54 am

Well Big John, I'm hanging on to it for now to try and entice Jody to come here to Hurricane alley and record his ground breaking CD in my studio.
You're welcome to stop by and do some recording too - any time you feel inclined to make the trek down south.

Wait a minute - we're in grave danger of hijacking Cliff's thread about the Dual Pro he won on eBay from the gcrep gang. But the Pewter Custom shows what can be done with an old beater in the right hands. So maybe Cliff will derive some inspiration from it. Do you have a "before" pic?

Say Cliff, why don't you consider having your Dual Pro refinished in pewter?

Jim Price · Post by **Jim Price** » 4 Nov 2005 11:01 am

Cliff
'don't know if this eBay case fits the Professional, but like the seller says - "hard to find". He gives the dimensions. I've been waiting for the case set for a Fender 1000 to show up. Talk about rare.
JP
http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-60s-Fender-Steel-Guitar-case-white-tolex-lap_W0QQitemZ7362770521QQcategoryZ41409QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 4 Nov 2005 5:20 pm

Thanks everybody for your very helpful information and advice. It helped me write a detailed email to GC; they offered to lower the price to $480 and I accepted that price. So I've got a messed-up guitar that plays and sounds good...oh well, I can live with that

Thanks again, your help is much appreciated. What a great forum.

Cliff

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 4 Nov 2005 5:27 pm

Cliff, you did good man, real good.

I take back some of the terrible things I said about the notorious gcrep gang . .

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 4 Nov 2005 5:29 pm

$480 is a fair price for that guitar, IMHO.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 4 Nov 2005 7:08 pm

Cliff, that's an even better deal. It's always nice to get something in mint condition but if it sounds great I'm willin to ignore cosmetics. Just play that great guitar and don't even worry bout the looks.

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 4 Nov 2005 7:55 pm

..play that great guitar and don't even worry bout the looks.

In other words like "Willie Nelson's guitar", right?

Aloha,
Don[This message was edited by Don Kona Woods on 04 November 2005 at 07:56 PM.]

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 4 Nov 2005 7:57 pm

Hey Jim: thanks a lot for the heads-up on the case. Actually, the dimensions are pretty good, it's a little bit longer than the guitar but the width is good. No room for the legs, though. Thanks!

I dig the pewter Custom, Rick. Nice work, Jim! Well, I guess this guitar has already be tainted with a few refins, so another ain't gonna hurt. Pewter's a cool color!

Thanks again for all your help. At the end of the day, this guitar sounds good and is pretty fun to play. The short scale is fun, harmonics seem to bloom pretty easy.

Cheers!
Cliff