Why is C6 not E6?

Greg Wine · Post by **Greg Wine** » 10 Nov 2005 8:57 am

Does anybody have a notion why the different keys for the two necks? Has anybody tried tuning back neck to E6? Sure would be easier to keep track of positions....

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 10 Nov 2005 9:04 am

Greg
The C6 tuning and the E9 tuning both had a high E string as the top note originally because the tunings were based on sets of guitar strings, which had E as the top note, of course. The tunings evolved from the A Major and E7 tunings.

If you raise C6 to E6, you will lose some low notes and timbre that I find are very characteristic to the sound of the tuning.

The way to keep track of positions is to learn the neck of the instrument, whatever tunings you use. Don't lock your brain into thinking only in "E"

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 10 Nov 2005 9:08 am

Check out Al Marcus' web site. He uses E6.
http://www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Russ

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 10 Nov 2005 9:35 am

For me it's always been, why isn't it B6th instead of C6th? The relationship of E9/B6 seems to be more logical.

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 10 Nov 2005 11:53 am

B6 makes the most sense, and A6 isn't too bad either if you think pedals down position.

Hopefully some people who frequent the no pedals area check this out, since I'm pretty sure C6 comes first from lap steel. I even believe some people used both C6 and A6 if they had a triple-neck, though most people seem to talk about A7 and E13 tunings.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 10 Nov 2005 12:14 pm

To me; I don't see the difference between just the fret positions making sense or not between all different tunings. I see tunings as numbers and intervals in every fret position; so it doesn't really matter(To Me)what the particular root tuning is; other than the amount of timbre one may want from a tuning(higher or lower).
Learn what number value all your strings are in any open tuning and how they relate to the chord of that tuning and then how they relate to any chord you may play in any tuning; and you won't be lost because your on a certain fret or not.
That's my take on it; as I see the steel guitar and all the tunings avaliable as a road map to music.
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 10 November 2005 at 12:14 PM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 10 Nov 2005 5:00 pm

Ricky-I agree with your theory as it relates to me. It doesn't matter much as you say, so a player should listen to your suggestion.

I am very familiar with E6 tuning, that relates with my 6 string guitar playing.

For me, I think it feels very comfortable to play. I don't even have to think anymore about it. It is all automatic.

However I have played on most of the tunings. A6,C#min,B6,D6,E6,C6,E13,E7),and as you say it doesn't matter, it is all intervals of one kind or another.

But I would recommend that for a guitar player to take on Steel. He should start on E9 and learn that.

If he has a D10, I still think E6 would be a wise choice, if he wants to learn his notes and chords.

Most of the E9 notes(strings) are tuned the same as E6 so it all looks very familiar to a newby.
He can use the C6 lesson material that is available and still play it on E6.

The bottom neck of the guitar can still use all the pedal and knee setups without changing rods or anything.

They will all work if you have the standard C6 with D on top. Only in E6 it is the F# that is on top,(Same as on E9)Just make some normal tuning adjustments for the slightly different tensions.

Pete and John-Your post also brings up a very valid point. Why not B6? It is more relevant to E9 than C6.
Herb also has pointed out valid reasons for C6.

In fact A6, as Herb Reminton's, is very good as it is the same as E9 with A and B pedals down. And we are all familiar with A and B pedals down and A6.
I better quit before I write a book. Good post....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 10 November 2005 at 05:11 PM.]

Greg Wine · Post by **Greg Wine** » 10 Nov 2005 5:05 pm

Does anybody have suggestions for string gauges for E6?

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 10 Nov 2005 5:21 pm

Greg-You can use the string gauges from a set of E9 strings.

<pre>
1.F#
2 G#(3rd string E9 here)
3 E
4 C# (use the 2nd E9 string here)
5 B
6 G#
7 E (8th sting E9 here) Throw out the F#.
8 C#( use the 9th string E9 here)
9 A(use the 10 string E9 here)
10 E (add a low guitar E here) Nice
</pre>
If you have any questions send me an email......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 10 November 2005 at 05:32 PM.]

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 10 Nov 2005 7:02 pm

If I'm reading Ricky right, I feel validated to hear a pro say something I've always felt. Unless you need some unusual tuning for some unique chords, the only difference between C6 and E13 (and all the other major chord tunings) (to me, too) is where to start on the neck. That's why double, triple and quad necks seem novelty to me. I've got a beautiful Gibson grande, C6 tuning with 7 strings on the upper neck, and E13 with 8 strings on the bottom, and the main reason I ever switch necks is just to...use the other neck 'cause it's there. They do the same thing, just at different frets. And, yes, there is different timbre, but nothing that really requires another neck. I've heard pedal players tune to D9 instead of E9, and if I hadn't been told, I wouldn't have noticed.

That said, this is merely my own opinion and I duly respect those who tune differently for darn good reasons -- and have multiple necks, whether they be lap or pedal, and use each one for specific tunings that they can't get in other tunings. For me, though, E tuning is all I need...works good in every key.

Al

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 10 Nov 2005 8:38 pm

What Ricky Davis said speaks volumes. If looking at a C neck confuses you because you play mainly on an E neck you need to change the way your thinking and looking at your steel. It doesn't matter. Your just starting in a different place. The intervals remain the same.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 10 November 2005 at 08:39 PM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 10 Nov 2005 9:08 pm

A friend/student just emailed me about this statement/ideas I gave; and wanted me to give a example to him of the way I see it.
I wrote him back with what you'll see in the quote below; and yes it is a basic example with a small amount of elaboration and of course it goes on and on from there; as one learns more. But I thought I would just put it up here; as it may enlighten someone; as I was fortunate to be enlightened by my best friend and Mentor; Gary Carpenter; years and years ago; as he is the one that made me start thinking about the steel this way. Wheather it be the pedal steel with what ever tuning or none pedal or whatever> you'll see the way I think about intervals in a basic description below>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>An example of the math eh??ha...
WEll that's a lesson in itself; but since you already understand basic music theory; than you'll understand; like your open tuning(e9th pedal steel) is a E and what notes are the triad of E and what number value are they and how many intervals between the strings.
Like your 8th string is a E note that's the root(1) and the your 6th string is G# that's the 3rd and 5th string is B and that's the 5th tone of the root chord. So what is the 7th string??(answer: it's a F# and it's a whole tone up from the 8th string E and a whole tone under the 6th string 3rd tone....so that makes it a 2 or 9th tone of the E chord....)> what's the interval between the 6th and 5th string??(a tone and half) and your have a pedal that brings them a whole tone apart....which now makes the root tone of the A chord) so now as those open strings of the A chord; what's the interval between the 6th string and 5th string??>well it's a whole tone; so that makes the 5th string the 2nd tone in A and you have a pedal that raises the 5th string up a whole tone to the now 3rd tone of the A chord...and since we know the 6th string with the pedal down is a A tone and 1 of the A chord....now what is the interval back down to the 7th string??? Well it's a tone and half; which now makes that the 6th tone of the A chord> and I can go on and on....but that's a breif description of what I see.
What ever tuning I have or what any guitar I'm playing> I see the open tuning and the intervals between EVERY string....Like now if I move up to another fret...and know my open tuning the 8th string is the root...then now I know what chord I base from and what the intervals are between all the strings and how to either alter them with pedals or knees or moving the bar to alter the scale tones or chord tones or what not.
I can make: lets say a G chord at the 3rd fret....>I can also make any form of a G chord on almost every fret all the way up to the octive 15th fret; with either pedals or knees or none or whatever; because I know the intervals.
Make since???ha...yeah right....
Well it takes time...and I do alot of it in my head....as I drive down the road to a gig....ha...>that's when I actually practice or learn songs before I get to a gig....>I hear the song and I hear the parts and I see them on my fretboard in my head(imagery) and when I get to the gig; I can already play it or have a damn good idea where it is.
Yes I know that sounds real scary pal....but it's true and you can do it too.....>but you have to start slow and start realizing what number value every string is when you bar the strings in every position you may make (example)a G chord>(basic E9 pedal steel G chords, everyone knows is 3rd fret no pedals; 6th fret A pedal and lever that raises the 4th&8th strings; and 10th fret pedals down)>so learn those and all the sudden you will see a road map of tones and the whole fretboard will open up to you.
Then start seeing your fretboard in your head....and sing a note out loud; and then see where you might think that note is on your fretboard with what ever string or whatever pedal or knee lever or not...>and then go to your steel and see if your right....ha...>that's the next lesson....and that one gets even more scary pal....> because then your learning to see pitch.
Don't let all this frustrate you....:as you did ask for an example..ah haa....but there's no way I could give you a example without telling you where it will go; as you practice it more.
Ricky
11205 Powder Mill Tr
Austin, Texas 78750
512-694-3139
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greg Wine · Post by **Greg Wine** » 11 Nov 2005 2:54 pm

Well, I re-strung and re-tuned to E6 and I love it. I know where I am at a glance. 40+ years of 6 string...Old dog I guess. Anyway, thanx for the input.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 11 Nov 2005 10:50 pm

I can uderstand how it might be easier for a newbie to learn E6th as opposed to C6th. But I would miss the variety of not having both the E and C tunings.Open string combos, timbre etc......bb[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 11 November 2005 at 10:52 PM.]

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 14 Nov 2005 4:15 pm

GREGG,you and others might find it interesting to know that BUDDY EMMONS had his back neck tuned to E6 over 20 years ago,
and played it that way for a while,but eventually went back to C6. He said both are good but that he favors the difference in tonality and variety of sound that having two tunings (in two different keys) brings.
Just food for thought. For some of us,it just breaks the monotony and helps to keep us out of a musical rut.
~~W.C.~~

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Nov 2005 6:40 pm

Both necks descended from non-pedal tunings. When we had no pedals, we used different chordal roots to get different sounds, i.e., different tunings. Having 2 necks tuned to the same chord root would have no real advantage. Position structures don't change with the tuning. We still start at a I chord, and then use the IV and V, and sometimes the II, and VI and VII. Keeping track of these positions wouldn't be simpler, no matter what tuning you use. If you can't remember the position of the major chords on the neck (there's only 11 of them) with any tuning, then you'll probably also have little luck remembering a whole song. You learn to count initially, and then it becomes almost automatic...always finding the sub-dominant and dominant chords at the same position off of the tonic. Base everything you do off of these 3 chords, and the rest is a snap.

If you're at an open "C", then the sub dominant("F") is at fret #5, and the dominant("G") is at fret #7. Playing in "E" at the 4th fret would still make the sub dominant ("A") 5 frets up - at fret #9, and the dominant ("B") 7 frets up - at fret #11. [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 14 November 2005 at 06:53 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 15 Nov 2005 12:23 am

It's good for your brain to venture out of your comfort zone.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 15 Nov 2005 9:17 am

Wayne-Then accordingly, you could us A6 or B6 on the bottom neck for the differnt tonalities. Still would be more relevant to E9 than C6. Just a thought...al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 15 Nov 2005 10:05 am

Then accordingly, you could us A6 or B6 on the bottom neck for the differnt tonalities. Still would be more relevant to E9 than C6.

This whole thread begs some questions for me, namely:

Why does the *second* tuning need to be *relevant* to the E9?

Why shouldn't BOTH necks be *relevant* to a general and practical, though not necessarily extensive, knowledge of music?

How is it that some players I know can play a D-10 with E9 and C6 tunings, an S-12 with Bb6 Universal, a non-pedal guitar with E13, A6, and B11, and a dobro with G tuning?

Why do I get the vibe that some forumites think the C6 is "not as good" or "not as logical" as other 6th type tunings?

Why does anyone *care* what tuning someone else plays, if they somehow think that tuning is inferior in some way to their own?

And FINALLY, why do I give a flip enough to spend time writing all the above?

Too much time on my hands today, that's why! I'll shut up now...

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 15 November 2005 at 10:14 AM.]

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 17 Nov 2005 5:39 pm

Geez..i agree with Ricky, Al, and Herb...i have played 6 string lead guitar..and i don't have any trouble switching between, my 6 string..and my C6th..incidentaly, i play C6th...and ONLY C6th. I sure can't see what one tuning has to do with the other. Theres no easy way around it. Like our good friend Ricky says. Just learn the neck of each. I always have my 6 string on stage..my steel tuned C6th, and my dobro tuned to G....i must admit..sometimes..i forget and play in the wrong key..but shoot..that's just old age..lol

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 17 Nov 2005 6:12 pm

Ya know, a little trick I've used as a 6 newby (and I'm probably growing a bad habit) is this: The band calls a tune in C so I just think "ok this one's in E." I mean if you think the tune is a third up then your positions are going to be the same as they are on E9 or a six string. The only real prob with this is it could get confusing if you're trying to think what note you're actually playing. If you're thinking positions though and trying to get around quickly this can really help. You can think "...it's in C for them but I'm in E" or "G for them but I'll just play it in B" etc.. Like Ricky said it's all just intervals anyway--doesn't matter what you call them.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 18 Nov 2005 12:25 am

My problem with an E6 tuning has always been that when a song is done in the key of Eb or D, you have to play in a register that is (to my ear) an octave too high! I like to play in the same register as the singer, provided “she” is not an Operatic~Soprano!

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“Big John” Bechtel
Soon to be: New Burgundy D–10 Derby (w/6 &

’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 18 Nov 2005 12:37 am

Well for me, I like the S-12U, E9th/B6th set up. I played D-10's for years with the mindset of one style on one neck and other styles on the other. It's as simple as lowering the E's to switch over to another tuning, the B6th. Move the bar up one fret and there's what I played on the back neck for years. The A6th tuning is just as easy, just press pedals 1 & 2 and your there with additional low bass strings added. Regardless of what tuning a player plays, it's all music. The sound voicings may change a little from tuning to tuning but as long as it's steel guitar, it's fine with me. I'll support it.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 18 Nov 2005 12:45 am

I didn't answer the question about E6th, directly. I have a old Fender 400, I converted over to non-pedal. I like to use the E6th tuning on it. I got the E6th from Don Helms. He explained it to me and played a lot of the Hank Sr. intros for me one night before a steel show. To me , the E6th and C6th are very similiar being the E6th has more of a high sound, whereas the C6th tends to be in the lower register. I also use the E13th from time to time.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 18 Nov 2005 7:04 am

Here's some historical perspective: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/002553.html