A little steel history, Joaquine

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Nov 2005 11:45 am

This thread has been compiled by some of the greatest lovers of Bigsby steel guitars in the world today. I'm glad we have such a interested group of people that care about this history,
Chas. Smith, Jussi H., Paul Warnik, Herb S. and many others have good information to offer here.

Read on,
[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 07 November 2005 at 09:57 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Nov 2005 12:04 pm

History lesson 101, Rm, 123
period starting 10 am Mon-Fri.
Bring a note if you will be late.
Prof. Gunna Seymour Soon
Bobbe[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 07 November 2005 at 09:57 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Nov 2005 1:06 pm

I must respectfully disagree, only slightly, with Bobbe's timeline. ("Okay Mr. Picky Picky

) I don't believe the Bigsby lap guitars were 1948 models, more like 1945. This is because I've got some videos of "soundies" made by Spade's band with Tex, Smokey, Smilin' Johnny, Murph, and George Bamby on accordion, which would make the time period 1944 or 1945, when Pedro was in the Army. Murph is clearly playing the Bigsby lap guitar with what looks like Epiphone style-pickups.

I believe Murph got the T-8 console in 1948, when he was back with the Caravan. I have a tape of a Caravan radio show where Tex mentions Murph having the console on the air.

Chas or Mike Johnstone may know more than I about this topic, or perhaps Jeremy Wakefield. But that's my story, and by God, I'm stickin' to it.

Pete Martinez told me that his Bigsby was built right after Murph's, and that the case was somehow part of a stand for the guitar. Wonder what that looked like? Pete's Bigsby was stolen about 10 years ago and he just about quit playing after that.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 November 2005 at 01:08 PM.]

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 5 Nov 2005 3:50 pm

Herb, was that stolen from his home, or some sort of gig or jam situation.
A stolen Bigsby, it's incrediable.. it's like when someone took a flatscreen monitor from our local arthouse cinema, from the foyer man!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Nov 2005 4:35 pm

Just a couple of questions from someone who was playing in the sandbox at the time. If Bud Isaacs' Bigsby was the first modern type pedal steel used on a hit record (Slowly), who had the first pedal Bigsby before that (and when)? It sounds like Joaguin and Speedy both had them, along with a few others. Were they using them for gigs, but just didn't have a hit record? Or were they just using the pedals for changing tunings, without using the moving harmony? Were there pedal Bigsbys recorded before "Slowly", but not hits?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Nov 2005 5:10 pm

David, you were in the sandbox? Wow, I was playing on the swing!!

I think Speedy had the first pedal Bigsby. He used it to change chords and also play licks, but not the E-A change that Isaacs created. The Bigsby I own was originally built in 1949 and had one pedal (five others were added at a later date, probably 1954).

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Nov 2005 5:51 pm

Herb, I think disagree with the '45 timeline, but I can be pushed a little, ---- '47 Possibly? I'd sure love to know for sure. I'll check Paul A. Bigsby's sites on Google, this may possibly give us a clue.
Thank you Herb, I'm just glad you knew Pete Martinez!
Bobbster

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Nov 2005 6:19 pm

Bobbe
Yeah, I know Pete Martinez, a cool old guy. Used to play with Tex Ritter, Merle Travis, but predominantly Jimmy Wakely, when Noel was with other bands. He was popular on the West Coast but moved back to Texas in 1950, got a job with the Wichita Falls ISD and had that as his day gig until he retired.

He was inducted into the Texas Steel Guitar Hall of Fame about 6 years ago. What was amazing is that at his induction, his Hawaiian guitar teacher, who was about 95 then, showed up when he accepted his award.

Pete's one of those guys that can keep you on the phone for hours reminiscing about the old days in California. I eat that stuff up!

As to the timeline, you gotta know that Tex Williams left Spade in 1946, and the rest of what became the Western Caravan left with him... Cactus Soldi, Deuce Spriggens, Smokey Rogers, and Warren Penniman. Pedro got out of the army after the war to find his bandmates had all left Spade. Murphey had left earlier to go with Andy Parker and the Plainsmen (along with Bamby) and Noel had taken his place by 1946. Pedro's choice was to go with Tex's group, since he, Cactus, and Smokey had all moved to California with Texas Jim Lewis in 1941 and were compadres.

So, the videos I have of Spade with Tex, Deuce, Smokey, Smilin' Johnny, Murph, Eddie Bennett (piano), Tiny Hunt (fiddle), and George Bamby (accordion... and 1/4 writer of "Three Way Boogie") had to be from 1945 at the latest.

SOOOOO... that would tell me that Murphey playing the D-8 lap Bigsby with that band configuration would have to make it a 1945 guitar.

If you haven't seen any of those soundies, perhaps when we see each other next, I'll have some to show ya.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 November 2005 at 06:21 PM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 November 2005 at 08:52 PM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 5 Nov 2005 6:27 pm

Speedy's Bigsby was Feb 1948, Joaquin's D-8 (the one I have) lap was 12-20-48. I was under the impression that the T-8 console was sometime in 1947 and the first Bigsby lap, Murph's, was earlier, when he was with Spade and I have a photo of Joaquin, with the Plainsmen holding that guitar (courtesy of the Gene Autry Museum).

[This message was edited by chas smith on 05 November 2005 at 06:29 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Nov 2005 7:55 pm

Cool photo of the Plainsmen! Standing, left to right: Andy Parker, George Bamby, Charlie Morgan, Clem (Paul) Smith. Seated: "Joaquino."

Not shown in this incarnation of the Plainsmen was Harry Sims (Simowitz), on fiddle. Monster violinist.

Murph wasn't the only steel player to play with Andy Parker. Here's another shot from the 1950's...

Standing, L to R: Charlie Morgan, Clem Smith, George Bamby, Harry Sims, Andy Parker. At microphone, Red Rowe. Noel on steel with his Bigsby, don't know who the piano picker is.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 November 2005 at 08:08 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Nov 2005 8:30 pm

Amazing how time flies, it seems like only yesterday that,,,,,,, well never mind,

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Nov 2005 8:37 pm

Well, where am I missing it? If the one I sold Chas. is a '48 and was the second one ever built, Pete's was the third, how can the console models have a lower date on them than the first four lap steels?
Also, I have never ever seen a lower number than the one lap steel that Chas has, Help me with this delima Herb, Chas. Jussi,
what was the ser. # on Speedy's? I've seen a lot of '49s, I have two '51s now and so on but can some one show me one with a lower number that the one Chas has?
Chas, are you sure the Speedy guitar is a '48? Does Ron Middlebrook have all these numbers?
I love learning things, and it looks like I'm about to! Ha! I Love it!

Bobbster, with respect, [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 05 November 2005 at 08:40 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 05 November 2005 at 08:41 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Nov 2005 9:04 pm

Bobbe
This is my theory:

What I think is the case is that Murphey knew Paul Bigsby from the motorcycle race scene in the San Fernando Valley where Bigsby was track announcer, and had him build the first D-8 lap guitar, the one with the thumbscrew pickup adjustments that look like Epiphone pickups, the one in the "soundies" and the photo above, in or around 1944 or 1945. There are clear shots of Murph's hands and the pickups, and this is definitely not the guitar made in 1948.

Then he started building consoles, like Murph's T-8, Speedy's, etc.

Then in 1948 he built the D-8 lap guitar that Chas now owns.

What I never asked Martinez was when he got his Bigsby. That would tell us if it was the earliest one, the console, or the 1948 guitar.

For me, the Holy Grail is the T-8 woodneck with the control knob on the top neck, and the plaque on front apron. Absolutely incredible grain on the maple, and the provenance of The Man Himself.

The Jerry Girard guitar's early history continues to elude me. Six pedals, stamped 10/18/54 bigger than Dallas in the correct place on the endplate lug. Yet Jerry Girard allows as how he bought it in 1949 with ONE pedal, and sold it six months after he got it. What happened between 1949 and 1954, (besides the Korean War and Eisenhower becoming president)?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 November 2005 at 09:15 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Nov 2005 9:17 pm

This makes sense because I know Murph was the idol of Paul and it was Murph that inspired Paul to be a builder of guitars and accesories.
Herb, in the '45 picture of Joaquin you have diplayed, is not the guitar that Chas. has. Different steel.

Herb, remember now that I bought Jerry Girard's guitar from Shot and Harry Jackson in the fall of '69, Shot had added the wood neck inserts sometime before that, I have heard no rumbleings about the guitar before this time, and don't know where Shot got it. Traded in on a Sho-Bud I'd guess,
I had it a couple of years before trading it the Ron Lashley, I know Ron had it 'till he died, I tried to get it from Ron's estate but you and Mike Cass beat me to it! I'm glad now as you are giving it a great home.
If I learn anything more about it's history, I'll let you know.
Now what about my "Sunny" D-8 Bigsby? [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 05 November 2005 at 09:26 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 05 November 2005 at 09:31 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 07 November 2005 at 10:13 AM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 6 Nov 2005 12:11 pm

I'm not absolutely positive about Speedy's Feb 48 date, that's what I read in an article on him.
This is the 12-20-48 D-8:

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 6 Nov 2005 3:12 pm

This is the guitar that I was always led to believe was number two, the second one ever made. One of the first four. (#2) This was supposed to be identical to the number one, the one that Paul wouldn't sell.
History can be complicated, at least the Bigsby history is much more simple than the "Sho-Bud legacy"!
Chas., thank you for posting the picture of this great guitar, I hope Bigsby fans will save it to their hard drives forever, This guitar is a very important part of steel guitar history.
Now what do we have to do to get you to post pictures of all your other Bigsbys????
You have some great ones.
Bobbe

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 6 Nov 2005 3:31 pm

What about Billy Robinson's single neck BIGSBY? He had it with Red Foley's band in the early 1950's or late 1940's.......

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 6 Nov 2005 5:24 pm

I see Billy almost daily, he would love to find that guitar, we have no clue though,

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 6 Nov 2005 11:34 pm

Geez, I get offline for a couple of days and you guys start this!!

Speedy's guitar was # 20848 (Feb -48), Noel's guitar was a month older, #11448 ( Jan -48 ). Then there was Barney Barnes' guitar # 5148 (May -48). And I don't have a serial # for Frank Juricek's guitar which he later sold to Walter Haynes, but Frank himself told me it was the fifth one built and thus got to be earlier than the D8 Chas has. Another really early one, poss. a -48 was Leodie Jackson's guitar but I have no idea of the exact date. But it's probably pretty safe to assume that Chas' D8 is the last guitar built in -48, right before Xmas. If we take into consideration the thumb rule/urban legend that PA built one instrument a month, then there probably were at least a dozen+more instruments built before this D8 lap steel. Although some of them were standard guitars. [This message was edited by Jussi Huhtakangas on 07 November 2005 at 01:23 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Nov 2005 9:52 am

Very good and enlightening information. This dispels much of the mis-info I had recived from the past 45 years. Boy, I feel this forum done well for the history of this great marque.
Thank you Jussi, Chas., Herb and other folks that care as I do.
Bobbe

Ben Rubright · Post by **Ben Rubright** » 7 Nov 2005 9:08 pm

Dear Profs Seymour, Steiner, et al.

It is wonderful just sitting on the sidelines and reading your posts. This is better than any history course I ever had anywhere.........!!! I hope you all will continue stuff like this and I'm also sure that I am not alone.

Thanks so much..............

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 8 Nov 2005 11:19 am

I don't have a photo of Norm Hamlet's T-8, however:

[This message was edited by chas smith on 08 November 2005 at 11:35 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Nov 2005 11:36 am

Chas, you owe me a chair. This one got all wet when I saw that D-8 picture.

Man, what a beautiful instrument!

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 8 Nov 2005 4:32 pm

Great photos Chas-baby-mama!! Who's the old coot playing the T-10?

Only kidding folks, that's The Man.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Dale Granstrom · Post by **Dale Granstrom** » 8 Nov 2005 8:21 pm

Hi,
I saw Joachin playing with Tex Williams in the early summer of 1949 when they were on tour up the west coast. I ordered my T-8 Bigsby in August of that year and received it within about 30 days. That would be September of 1949. The only identifying numbers on it were number 17 printed on the underside of the neck platforms with a black felt marker. Bigsby told me that was probably the serial number, but wasn't sure.
This guitar didn't have pedals when I bought it, but had 5 pedals added about 1956. Oh, Murphy's guitar didn't have pedals and he stood and played.

I sold this guitar to someone in Kentucky about 1963. Sure would like to know who has it now. My name was inletted in the front panel like most Bigsby's I have seen.

I built a direct copy of a Bigsby out of Myrtle Wood and was a D-10 with 5 pedals. This guitar went to Texas in 1969. Would like to know what happened to that one too.

Dale Granstrom