Two fingers or Three?

Chuck Hall · From: Warner Robins, Ga, USA

Lets start a good un.

When I started trying to play steel I got a Jeff Newman video. On the video he said that some players used three fingers but he taught only using two. I know the greats like Bobbe and Big E Have 8 fingers on each hand and use them all on every chord.

What is your poison? What works best for you and WHY?

Three fingers (two fingers and the thumb) works well for me unless i'm measuring tekiler, burp!

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EMCI D10 8/4 and Nashville 400

[This message was edited by Chuck Hall on 08 October 2005 at 05:47 AM.]

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Sometimes two are too many for me, so three is out of the question!!

unless measuring rum,,,
Larry

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Emmons S/D-10, 3/5, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

[This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 07 October 2005 at 03:46 PM.]

Thom Ferman · From: Las Vegas, NV, USA

Well, I still consider myself a beginner, and I still watch the Newman videos. I went back and revisited the Right Hand Alpha tape and Jeff's approach is to use a thumb and two fingers. Single note runs and non-adjacent string doubled notes happen between thumb and 2nd finger. 1st finger comes into play when playing 2 notes simultaneously on two adjacent strings. Jeff says three note chords contain too much harmonic content to fit in a band context, (confuses the listener). Probably good advice for us beginners, but not for all of you pro's out there.

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

I learned first with one finger, single string picking until I didn't nail a second second when picking up and down the neck as fast as I could.

Then, I graduated to two fingers then to three. Once I had mastered the art of picking a chord with three fingers and not screwing up, I never left it. In fact, that's how I practise speed picking: all three fingers involved.

I play with a horn band and still use the three finger picking and it does not seem to upset the old man.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

To each his ability. You have five, why not use as many as you can.

I do believe that Dr. Lee J. does.
Surely Reese Anderson uses more than two.

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

I use three fingers and my thumb, but when I play songs with chiming steel, I use my middle finger and thumb. Brett, Emmons S-10, Morrell lapsteel, GFI Ultra D-10

[This message was edited by Brett Day on 08 October 2005 at 12:16 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Does anybody really think there is ONE RIGHT ANSWER to EVERY QUESTION?

It's simple: some (Buddy Emmons, and many others -- including me) use 2 + thumb; some (Paul Franklin and others) use 3 + thumb

There are some (e.g., Dr. Hugh Jeffries) who use ALL FIVE FINGERS

The technique is not the music. It's just a way to play it. There are many ways to get there. Whatever works for YOU is what's best for YOU. What works for someone else may be interesting, but not the gospel.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jim Mathis · From: Overland Park, Kansas, USA

I use three finger picks (and a thumb pick), but I rarely play four tone chords -- but I can if called for.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I'm going for five. I like it thick.

Rick Garrett · From: Tyler, Texas

Yeah Reece uses 3 fingers. Personaly speaking, two fingers is more than enough for me to paint myself into a musical corner.

Rick

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I switched to thumb + 3 fingers about a year ago. I find it very useful for wide arpeggios and sometimes for chords. The nice part about it is that it's possible to only use 1 or 2 when the situation calls for it. There are times when 4- or even 3-note chords are too much. But I like having the option.

Ergonomically, this was a straightforward change for me, since I normally play guitar with a flatpick + middle/ring fingers anyway. One day I just sat there and thought, "Why not use the ring finger - you've been doing that for years on guitar?". So I tried and liked it. It did require some adjustments to palm blocking, however.

Whatever works.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I think Jeff Newman and Buddy Emmons essentially advocated finding something that worked and sticking with it, Newman was especially clear that having too many choices would confuse you at speed - two-finger pickers, both of them. Joe Wright and Paul Franklin take a different position, that you should learn all the ways to pick something so that you have more options - Wright I know is a three-finger picker.

Two points: I play a lot of long violin-type licks and ostinato bits and I'm sure that using three fingers helps with the fatigue factor. Maybe not exactly the 33% or 25% you would reason, but just being able to give the index finger or middle finger a short rest lets it catch it's (metaphorical) breath;

Second, fingering sequences can and are used to count out time intervals, so your choices will affect the way you count. Dave Mudgett posted some b@njo patterns a while back I'll quote (without using the "quote" function, so as not to shrink the width):

"Some of the more common 3-finger banjo rolls in 4/4 (8 eighth-notes-to-the-bar) form are:

1. Forward Rolls: TIM-TIM-TI, TIM-TIM-TM, TI-TIM-TIM, TM-TIM-TIM, IM-TIM-TIM, M-TIM-TIM-T (Basic 3-finger pattern is TIM)

2. Backward Rolls: MIT-MIT-MI, MIT-MIT-MT, T-MIT-MIT-M, IT-MIT-MIT (Basic 3-finger pattern is MIT)

3. Forward-Reverse Rolls: TIM-T-MIT-M, TIM-T-MIT-I (Uses both Forward and Backward 3-finger pattern)

4. Alternating Thumb Roll: TITM-TITM, TMTI-TMTI (Basic 3-finger pattern TITM or TMTI, thumb alternates)

5. Foggy Mtn. Breakdown Roll: IM-IM-TIM-T

where T=Thumb, I=Index, M=Middle, and the dashes are not rests - they're there to highlight the repetitive patterns.

Just the plain 3-finger patterns work well for 3/4 or Waltz time: TIM, TMI, IMT, ITM, MTI, MIT. Actually, these 6 cover all the possible basic 3-at-a-time patterns. Really good Scruggs-style players can mix and match these patterns and more at will, and at high speed.

For example, in the 4/4 rolls, the first forward roll just repeats TIMTIMTI over and over again. There are lots of possible variations on these. I still like Earl Scruggs' famous book and the record that goes with it. I use T, I, M, and R (Ring) fingerpicks on steel, which provides even more variations yet. I use TIMR, RMIT, and TIMT-RMIT (which is sort of like a 4-finger variation of the Forward-Reverse Roll) a lot for arpeggiating 4/4 passages."

This clearly shows how you can count 3's and 4's with your finger choices. This thread might also be useful: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/009914.html

[This message was edited by David Mason on 08 October 2005 at 08:57 AM.]

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I started playing in ’48 on a 6-str. Supro using my teacher~instructed (2)-finger~picks and the Thumb. Then in about ’50–’51 I switched to the 10-str. Alkire EHArp and (3)-fingers and the Thumb, because of the greater spread between the necessary strings to make up the proper chords. Then, when I moved on the PSG, I continued with (3)-finger~picks on my 8-string Sho-Bud, however; listening to players such as Emmons and Day, I noticed that I seemed to be playing too many harmony notes generally, which impaired a clean sound. So, I decided to try going back to (2)-finger~picks to avoid overloading my sound. After that point, I noticed that, IMO; my playing seemed to clean up a bit also! Now, in the very near future; I'll be going to a new PSG tuning which will give me the option of playing it with or without using the pedal~changes. When not using any pedals, (2)-finger~picks will do nicely, but; when using the pedal-changes especially, the spread between notes in (4) or more note runs will increase drastically at times and I expect it will be necessary to eventually go back to employing (3)-finger~picks for comfort, if for nothing else! Not being a fast~picker anyway, the extra finger~pick will come in handy! I'll just have to remember not to over-use it. It's a matter of getting used to!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

Chuck Hall · From: Warner Robins, Ga, USA

Thanks to all who answered. It has been very enlightning.

Ron Page · From: Penn Yan, NY USA

David Doggett · Posted 10 Oct 2005 8:16 am

I started out using a thumb and three finger picks on guitar for finger picking patterns, and I just carried that over to Dobro and pedal steel. However, I don't use the ring finger much.

To some extent I agree with Jeff Newman and others that many times two note chords sound better in the mix. This creates clearer and more powerful harmony, in the same way that leaving notes out of power chords makes them more powerful. However, three note chords are part of the steel guitar sound too, and they have their place. Fast choppy three note chords are a mainstay of honky-tonk steel. When soloing, adding the fourth note usually pushes the thumb down to playing an octave below the melody being played by the ring finger. This usually doesn't sound so great to me, and I rarely do that. About the only time that sounds good to me is on the last chord of a solo steel song. Somehow it fits there.

For solo steel, a great sounding chord for full slow melody passages is a three note chord skipping every other note of the chord - (top to bottom) 1,3,5 or 3,5,1 or 5,1,3. This gives a hymn-like or organ-like sound that seems to work better than having the bottom note an octave below the top note. With four picks you can add the missing note at the top of the chord and make it a little richer - 1,5,3,5 or 3,1,5,1 or 5,3,1,3.

In jazz, thick four note chords can sound good, and I think that is why people like Reece Anderson use four picks. But again, the bottom note is not necessarily an octave below the top note. Bill Stafford is a master of using his fingers for thick chords, and using his tumb for a moving bass line down on the low strings of his 14-string universal.

The ring finger is the weakest and most clumsy finger on your hand. It doesn't work well for fast picking and rolls. Also, having a pick on your ring finger makes harmonic chimes harder. So the extra pick is not all good.

So for me the bottom line is that, for classic country picking, you rarely use that ring finger pick, even if you wear it. For jazz and classical, particularly for solo steel, the extra finger comes in handy to free your thumb up for low bass notes, especially with a C6 neck, uni or extended E9.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Like D. Doggett I was already using three fingers for guitar and lap steel fingerpicking and just carried it over when I got my first PSG.

I notice that nobody has yet mentioned that Jerry Garcia (you know, the famous hippy banjo player that was so terrible on the pedal steel guitar that some folks aren't over it YET!) only used fingerpicks on his index and ring fingers as his middle finger had gone missing some time before.

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Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 10 October 2005 at 10:17 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 10 Oct 2005 1:24 pm

Oh, now I understand why he played like that. Poor guy. No wonder he was so unsuccessful as a musician.

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Dave G.,,,,

Yer a trouble maker!!! LOL...

Larry

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Emmons S/D-10, 3/5, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Terry Bethel · From: Hollister, Missouri (deceased)

If I was starting over I would go to three finger picks and a thumb pick.
I really like the spread you can get with the extra finger pick.
A friend of mine, Milton Quackenbush who happened to be a great piano player, was learning to play the steel and one day on a visit to see how he was doing, I suggested he try the extra finger pick. I suggested he use it for chords that were split up on C6th, like on strings 3,5,6 and 8. I suggested to limit the extra pick just on those type chords until he got used to wearing the extra pick. About two weeks later I stopped by to see him and he was using the pick on everything, and was not having any problems.

Oh, to be twenty years old again. Oh well!!!!!!!!!!!
Terry Bethel

Danny Sneed · From: Morristown,Az.U.S.A.

When I'm driving everybody I meet uses just one finger.

P.S. Don't listen to Terry Bethel.

Danny

Chuck Hall · From: Warner Robins, Ga, USA

I seem to meet a lot of one finger drivers? May be cause I drive the speed limit and leave early enough to get there on time. lol

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EMCI D10 8/4 and Nashville 400

Tom Quinn · Posted 12 Oct 2005 10:42 am

I started out picking with my thumb and middle finger, but after going to Jeff's trailer school (the good old days!!! :- )) back in the 70s, I moved to thumb and index finger.

I think that you can get a lot of steel with just two notes. The guitar seems to sing better that way, but YMMV. I also think three knee levers are plenty... -L-

Chuck Hall · From: Warner Robins, Ga, USA

I use some two and some three. Guess I need to start work on using that rang fanger.

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