All beginners and students please read this.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Oct 2005 6:34 pm

So Billy, if you give someone a lesson and they record it, would it be okay with you if he sold the tape to recover part of the cost of the lesson?

What if the person he sold it to was one of your students, and he quit coming to you once he started getting the lessons cheaper from your other student?

I think that almost everyone who has ever bought a Jeff Newman course got their money's worth of steel guitar knowledge from it. If you didn't learn anything, then you might feel justified in trying to get part of your money back. But if those courses comprise part of your core knowledge of how to play, have a little respect and consider it money well spent, like a good seminar.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 27 Oct 2005 8:18 pm

Note (only) to beginners and students that have skimmed this thread but not read it yet:

Don't read it.

Just do everything you can to learn to play your guitar. That's the only rule you need to know for ten years or so.

Worry about all the other stuff later.

Whatever you do, don't ask these people how to tune it..

EJL

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 28 Oct 2005 3:14 am

What I posted earlier on this subject is just my opinion. My opinion is based on the fact that players have bought and traded courses over and over trying to help one another. I wish everyone that purchased instruction materials would buy them new but that's not going to happen. There's just to many ways to get Psg info other than buying it new. Personally myself, I've never bought any courses that were not new ones and probably won't. I support the Psg businesses anyway I can.

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 28 Oct 2005 4:04 am

buying used is not even remotely the equivelant of ripping someone off, the start of this thread is crazy, with all that's going on in this world some people are concerned with legal sales of used items? Methinks some of you had a priviledged upbringing, buying anything new is not a luxury for many of us, I'm with Eric.

Chris Bauer · Post by **Chris Bauer** » 28 Oct 2005 4:47 am

I'm the author of a business book aimed at a pretty small niche as far as the potential readership. (It might make the steel guitar community look huge!) At this point, used copies far outsell new ones.

At first I felt annoyed as I saw more and more used copies creep onto Amazon and saw my sales figures there go down and down. Then I noticed that used copies floating around were significantly increasing the calls I was getting for speaking gigs, consulting, and for sales of my other books and services. Even though readers aren't buying the book from me, the benefits to me are undeniable. It's like the bands who post free music and see their sales increase.

Would I endorse ideas being ripped off and sold by those ripping them off? Not a chance! Used products from the original writer or manufacturer? It's tough for me to argue against it. Besides, as Eric and others suggest, used equipment and materials will often be the only reasonable springboard a lot of folks have for getting going - or keeping going - on steel. Why do anything that will keep potential newbies from learning and enjoying the instrument?

That said, this is a small community and I hope we all do everything we can to purchase new products directly from the authors, players, and retailers as much as possible. They need our support. (And I am certainly clear that I need to remind myself to practice more of what I'm preaching here as well...) I just think we need to be careful not to ignore the various significant advantages of the used market.[This message was edited by Chris Bauer on 28 October 2005 at 05:53 AM.]

David Weaver · Post by **David Weaver** » 28 Oct 2005 4:54 am

Copying material and selling it is theft...period.

Selling used is legal, etc, but I know I won't do it. I keep all my lessons and tabs and go back to them from time to time. There is so little money in the lesson business that I would just as soon that the producer got the money and didn't have to compete in the used market.

As a guy who never thinks too far away from the dollar sign, I would advise the producers of instruction materials to do what software companies and product companies do....update their material every 2 to 5 years and sell the "newest version". I have a feeling that they could get a lot of repeat customers if they just did a "New version of 'Intro to the Blues' in C6th", or whatever it is they sell. So much of the material that was produced 15 years ago has not been updated.

Get the money!....

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 28 Oct 2005 5:11 am

We all have our own share of problems to deal with, financial or otherwise. HowardR's point about trading in is a wise one, and that's how I'd do it.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 28 Oct 2005 7:34 am

I believe that a respected musician, steeler, and nice guy (I got to meet Mike P. at the San Jose steel guitar jam last April) starting a thread just extolling the virtues of the late Mr. Newman's training courses would have gone a lot farther than opening up this can of worms.

Recommending Jeff's materials might have done more good for Fran than opening up the subject to controversy.

Never mind cars, our higher education "industry" in America is fueled by a large percentage of used textbooks in almost any college bookstore. So almost any American that has attended college has the mindset of acquiring materials used if they are in reasonably good condition.

A thread like this, though I know Mr. Perlowin has only the best of intentions to help out Fran could actually backfire, to where a student player may think "I wonder if I could find that used somewhere" instead of just going to the website and not thinking twice about ordering it new, based on Mike's endorsement of a quality product.

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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 28 October 2005 at 08:36 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 28 Oct 2005 8:39 am

I'll not have to worry about this. Much to my wife's chagrin, I never get rid of anything. (I am however in the market for another large empty building...).

Bandstand Backup
Just Play the Melody
Minor Chord Connection
25 different woodshed workshops
Right Hand Alpha
Give Me an Intro
No Speed Limit
Pedal Steel Guitar Techniques
Plus some of Jeff's out of print stuff

All purchases were one directional, I'll never sell 'em.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 28 October 2005 at 09:44 AM.]

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 28 Oct 2005 9:06 am

Does the UK get a check in the maibox everytime an American uses an english word?This topic is too funny. bob

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 28 Oct 2005 9:09 am

"Buying the material used may not exactly fall into the catagory off ripping off the authors, but for practical purposes it's the same thing."

Balderdash. That entire statement, if you read it carefully, conflicts with itself. It's either "not exactly" ripping off or it is - you can't cushion it by adding "for practical purposes". Sounds like a politician.

The whole idea presented is simply one of a provincial little community protecting itself from the big bad old world.

How many advanced players really NEED their beginner materials any longer? Why not let some beginner get them at a reduced price, increasing his interest in the instrument and building the market rather than essentially closing it.

Look - I'm a beginner. And I can't afford to go out and buy new copies of every flippin' "world's best" steel course. I can buy a limited number of used things, and even less new ones. I don't have an unlimited budget. If used materials I buy are good, I might be inclined to buy that author's other materials new.

But if I have to get everything new, I'm going to have a very, very limited exposure due to sheer economics.

I think the "let's protect our little club" is a preposterous argument. Small business or large, used materials that are no longer being used by the owners should be sold rather than sit unused. That's a waste and a travesty for newer players.

Give rookies a chance to get a wider exposure. Shutting the doors is what will keep the steel a "boutique" instrument with a miniscule market.

I would think that would be obvious to an author of published works. Wider exposure = more sales, not less. Circulation of used items only serves to increase sales of new items by expanding the market itself - this is marketing 101 stuff, folks.

Then again, maybe older, established players just don't want anyone intruding - so by limiting circulation of learning materials, they can keep from being challenged by anyone new to the steel world.

That's a depressing thought.

Added:

"It's about supporting individual people, many of whom we know personally. "

Beginners DON'T know these people personally and could not care less about the small-market, limited thinking approach to things. I'd never hear od Jeff Newman, for example, before I came here. I've still never seen any of his courses. As expensive as they are, unless I can get them used, I never will - for I have NO exposure to them to convince me they are worth a dime. But if I get a used one and it's "all that and a bag o' chips" then I'd be inclined to buy a new one and support the producer of the product.

I think the "old hands" need a wakeup call, and an understanding that newcomers often don't know any of the names being tossed around, don't know the players, don't know the products...it really does often seem like a "you guys" and "us guys" place..."us" being the newcomers who are pointed at in shame because we don't know who someone named "Fran" is.

And while I'm on a roll - why in the world is it that this small corner of the guitar world seems to be the only one that's unaware (except for the sysop and a select few) that Paypal is used as the preferred method of "used" musical item purchase in most of the rest of the guitar world? It's not really off topic since we're talking about sales of used goods - but I came from a six-string market where Paypal is used 90% of the time to a place where hardly anyone uses it, for which I have no explanation but a lot of frustration.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 28 October 2005 at 10:35 AM.]

John Ummel · Post by **John Ummel** » 28 Oct 2005 9:17 am

Another reason for not selling/buying used instructional material is that the seller might someday regret it. I had an original copy of Tom Brumley's "Tom Cattin'" tab book (Still have the LP). I purchased both from Tom Bradshaw. I gave the tab book to a student of mine years ago in a blind fit of misguided generousity!...Boy do I wish I had that book today.
Johnny

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 28 Oct 2005 10:28 am

deleted[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 31 October 2005 at 09:22 AM.]

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 28 Oct 2005 11:54 am

After reading every word of this thread, I can't help but chiming in. I hope I don't drift off topic too much.

I agree for the most part, with everything that's been said.

Everyone has good points and seems to have personal reasons for feeling the way they do.

I would not say that I would "never" buy a CD or some teaching material used, but I generally don't because I prefer to buy something new. Usually the difference in price seems insignificant. You also can't compare (for instance) an older VHS version of something with the advantages you get on a newer DVD version. I prefer to keep such items basically forever for my own reference.

Jeffran just made a sale to me last week for the complete "Up From the Top" course. It took me some time to be able to make the purchase, but I just never considered looking for a used version. But that's just me, and if someone makes a personal decision and buys something used... (NOT A COPY!), that's a personal decision. In going through the first half of the AB pedal course, I feel I've already gotten my money's worth. I think good video courses, are a real value. Private lessons are important too, and I rely on them for part of my own income as well. But, having a good course in a "hard copy" of some sort, is like having multiple lessons and reviews available for a one time price. So, I don't think any good course is "too expensive". I think buying new is the best way to go out of respect for the author of material/copyright. However, have to agree that as long as something is being circulated, it is like advertising. If the material is worth it, new sales will probably be generated. If someone is a die-hard "buy only used" type person, I don't see where a huge impact on sales of new material in the long run of things is being made.

Bob P.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Oct 2005 11:55 am

I can see both sides of the argument (there are two sides). Those who can afford to buy new stuff should do it, but those who cannot should feel no guilt in buying used materials. As others have said, there's nothing wrong with trying to recoup half of the money you spent and giving a newbie a break at the same time. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel there's enough used materials on the market to make a significant difference in anyone's livelihood. Good stuff will be bought, and usually kept. There's a market out there for everything, and if you have a good product, the steel world will buy it. So-so stuff, or materials a player has not received significant gains from will be passed on, given away or sold. That's a fact of life. Musicians generally aren't the richest people in the world, but I have to think that's not the fault of someone who's just trying to break into playing, and face it...we've all bought used stuff at one time or another.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 28 Oct 2005 11:59 am

I have attended some Jeff Newman seminars and learned the basics and paid full price. However, I believe I have learned much more from this forum, about steel guitar than any other source. Every time I haver questions I ask them and get a flood of replies with just great information. Am I now supposed to feel guilty that I have not yet paid for this information???

Skip Keane · Post by **Skip Keane** » 28 Oct 2005 12:12 pm

So, you only buy new steel equipment right and your cars have all been new. I think that if you are passing some original material on to others, it might get them to buy other material by the same person thereby increasing sales....
recyling is a way to reduce one's own waste and help others in the process.
All I own is vintage equipment,,,,
thanks.[This message was edited by Skip Keane on 28 October 2005 at 01:16 PM.][This message was edited by Skip Keane on 28 October 2005 at 01:28 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 28 Oct 2005 1:05 pm

Y'know, I think I'm gonna start giving my students used lessons...

John Ummel · Post by **John Ummel** » 28 Oct 2005 1:20 pm

I agree with the point Mike is trying to make. For the same reason I don't let people make copies of CD's I have purchased. Support the ARTIST.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 28 Oct 2005 2:40 pm

John, "support the artist" is irrelevant. We're not talking about copies - we're talking about used items.

Frank Estes · Post by **Frank Estes** » 28 Oct 2005 2:54 pm

Jim Cohen: if you repeat your material, then you are selling used lessons!

Mike P., as usual, I completely disagree with your position as long as we are not talking illegal copies. Just the typical feel-good, and makes-sense-on-the-surface, illogical thinking, we have come to expect from those who feel more than think!

The people who pointed out how money is raised by selling no-longer-needed instruction to in-turn buy other material are right on target with what happens.

What about those who factor-in some bootlegging into their prices...Not saying it is a license to do so, but the prices reflect it. In your world Mike, they should not price their product to account for the lost revenues because of copying.

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 28 Oct 2005 3:00 pm

Gosh, this thread is so infuriating...

What Mike is saying is that Jeff Newman's widow could use some help, so if you get a chance, buy the books directly from her.

Is it so hard to understand???

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 28 Oct 2005 3:01 pm

I think we need to keep things in perspective. We are not talking about big companies with lots of assets. We are talking about PEOPLE. People like Fran and Herb Steiner and Joe Wright and J.D. Maness who are part of our community and family, and who, are supporting themselves (at least in part) by the sale of their material, that they produce at their own expense.

Comparing them to automakers is ludicrous.

As for the comments “Beginners DON'T know these people personally and could not care less...” and “We are not required to know every instructor … out there …” let me say this:

We are more than just a group of players of the same instrument. We really are a community. We meet several times a year in St Louis or Dallas to attend shows, or get together and have jam sessions. For me, seeing the friends I’ve made at steel guitar events is more important than the events themselves. The fellowship and camaraderie that takes place at these events is one of the best things about being a steel guitarist. And I know many others who feel the same way.

If you want to isolate yourselves and not be a part of this, that’s your privilege, but by doing so, you’re missing out on something worthwhile.

I'll say it again. Fran, and Joe Wright and Herb Steiner are FAMILY. If we don't support our own people, who will? [This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 28 October 2005 at 06:02 PM.]

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 28 Oct 2005 3:25 pm

Deleted[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 31 October 2005 at 09:21 AM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 28 Oct 2005 3:52 pm

If I buy something, I own it, and I'll dispose of it in ANY way I see fit! If I want to give away a book, a CD, or a box of cookies, then I'll do it. AND, If I paid for an instructional tape, video, DVD, whatever, and I've gotten all the good out of it that I can, then I'll either sell it, or (more likely) give it away. My choice, and to suggest that I do otherwise, is utterly ridiculous.