All beginners and students please read this.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 26 Oct 2005 9:19 pm

I just received a letter from somebody asking me to recommend some instruction courses. This person said he was going to buy some used copies of some of Jeff Newman's courses from a fellow who didn't need them anymore.

I beg you all, please, if you're going to buy instruction material, buy it new. People like Jeff (and now Fran) support themselves by selling these courses. Buying the material used may not exactly fall into the catagory off ripping off the authors, but for practical purposes it's the same thing. The author still gets nothing for his efforts.

Tbis is a relatively small community, and we need to support each other. Jeff Newman and Winnie Winston and the other authors have done us all a great service by making these courses available. We all owe it to them (or their widows) to do the right thing.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 26 Oct 2005 9:47 pm

Well said Mike.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Oct 2005 2:48 am

Although I certainly would always encourage folks to buy NEW from the original authors..and I can think of nobody better to buy from than Fran.

Buy a new Steel..sell it used ..? The manufacturers need to stay in business don't they ?

Encourage to buy new.....yes..

A student sells a few ORIGINAL beginners programs to another student..he takes that money and purchases some more advanced stuff from the AUTHOR...or someones CD's...or perhaps buys a NEW STEEL...or a NEW AMP..or a NEW SEAT...

the cycle begins..and stays in rotation...

it's what we do, it's how we operate down here on our Planet...

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 October 2005 at 04:01 AM.]

Herman Visser · Post by **Herman Visser** » 27 Oct 2005 7:03 am

I bought my first instruction used. and think nothing wrong with it.That was three yrs. ago.
In the mean time I have bought atleast$3000 in CDs and other instuctions and equip.Now Iam getting ready to buy a Sup-slide Thats another 1300 so you see how the Ball gets going fron one used book and Steel.
My 2 cent on this
Herman

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 27 Oct 2005 7:04 am

I can agree with Mike in principle; he knows of which he speaks.
But looking at the ecological aspect of the buying cycle, I wonder what happens to all those plastic-encased videos and discs if they are to come to more than landfill.

What I have, they will go along with my guitar when I sell it, as we all move along to something better or more useful, be it equipment or instructional materials.
In that case, it's a gift of sorts, but might be considered a loss of income to the author or manufacturer.

These things all have to be considered in a global economy that is increasingly glutted by discards; so I'm not sure the situation is that black and white. It's not to me.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 27 Oct 2005 8:04 am

Sorry Mike. I differ with you.

The items ARE indeed used. When they were new they were purchased from Newman and he made his profit from them. He did not lease the items. He sold them. The buyer now has the right to sell them and a seller has the right to buy them on the used market without any strings attached.

Let's expand your thought further.
Would you also encourage people to NOT purchase a used Zum guitar. After all, Bruce does support himself and his family making these. Should we ONLY buy new ones?

The profit has already been paid/made on printed and recorded items. These need to be passed on to others interested in the steel guitar whether they be purchased used or given away free. The reduced price as used items makes these items even more affordable and helps expand the steel guitar base.

Your premise is noble, but I feel a bit idealistic.[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 27 October 2005 at 09:29 AM.]

Clyde Lane · Post by **Clyde Lane** » 27 Oct 2005 8:15 am

Mike said, "used COPIES".
Clyde Lane

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 27 Oct 2005 8:20 am

I guess all used car dealers should be closed, thrift stores closed, used book stores closed, pawn shops closed and so on. That would also mean that I should scrap my SG because it is second hand. Can you imagine the land fills we would have if nothing but "new" items were purchased.

Sorry Mike, that's not the way this world works.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 27 Oct 2005 8:47 am

Maybe there's a different twist on this:
Do you want this material to be available in the future? That income determines whether Fran (or Joe or Dick Meis or whoever) will have the funds to replenish the stock of existing courses when the time comes.

If we keep recycling the material the original publisher will get nothing -- and that may be just what will be available five years from now from Jeffran -- nothing.

While you are completely within your legal rights to sell a product protected by copyright to another, buying a new copy will help ensure that the publisher can afford to produce more new material or, in Fran Newman's case, be able to continue to provide Jeff's excellent courses for years to come.

This is not the same as selling used cars or even used steel guitars. The value of the material is the 'intellectual property', not the 'physical asset', and courses are far less expensive than a guitar. It all comes down to a moral decision an individual must make. It may determine whether a publisher can stay in business.

Just my take on it. No matter how the 'world works', the market for steel guitar courses is very limited. The price we may pay for recycling courses is that they won't be available for future generations of steel players.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 27 Oct 2005 9:06 am

There is always good reason or intention for interfering with free enterprise. It's the results that are poor. The laws of supply and demand are proven to work well (best) when unimpeded, be it in small markets or large markets; local markets of global markets.

The best reason I can think of for buying the the Jeff Newman couses new is to get them on DVD instead of VHS tape.

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HagFan

Mike Mantey · Post by **Mike Mantey** » 27 Oct 2005 9:31 am

I don't like to do this, but I have to. I would have to agree with Bill on this. The profit was made on the item when it was purchased new. The product obviously has been used for its intended purpose or the guy would still need it and not be selling it. Now the guy buying the material is getting the same thing at a used price and therefore giving some money back to the original purchaser and now he has some extra money and may be inclined to go out and buy a new course from someone. The way I see it is, the course is now helping two people and they can then go out and move on to the next course, which they will not all be available used I am sure. I know these folks are trying to make a living off selling them, just like we are with guitars. The thing that keeps this working is coming out with new stuff that is not available used, that is where the guy makes his money. If every player had a new Royal Precision then we would have nothing else to do. Therefore it would be in our best interest to develop a new guitar that everyone would buy again. The other thing to keep in mind is the steel guitar is not a cheap hobby. As a beginner coming into this, they can easily be overwhelmed or broke after just buying the guitar, amp, pedal, cords, picks, bar, and everything else needed to get started, then he has to buy all the courses too, you can bet I would be looking for a value new or used. Just my 2 cents.

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Mike Mantey
Sales & Production Manager
Mullen Guitar Co., Inc.
(970) 664-2518
www.mullenguitars.com

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 27 Oct 2005 9:40 am

This is an interesting topic.

Some months ago, somebody on the Forum was looking to buy a used copy of Tommy White's E9th video. My response (put as respectfully as I could) was to suggest that he spend just a little more and buy a new one from Tommy. My point was essentially the same as Mike's. TW had hinted that, one day, there'd be a C6th 'sequel', and most of us would still like to see that; supporting Tommy's enterprise would encourage him to invest more of his time, and we'd all benefit in the long run.

I have to say that I was severely chastised by a number of correspondants, and it was pointed out to me that anyone had a right to sell anything they owned. I couldn't agree more, but the principal remains the same.

By the way, Mike - I was treated far more roughly than you've been in this 'thread'

.....

RR
(Edited for a 'typo' - not content)[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 27 October 2005 at 10:42 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 27 Oct 2005 10:02 am

General Motors needs the money more than any steel guitar guy does.

Carlos Polidura · Post by **Carlos Polidura** » 27 Oct 2005 10:03 am

what should be done with any old material that we may have and no longer need or use?
should we sell it back to the manufacturer...to the seller?
would they be willing to buy it back for re-sale?
do i reserve the wright to do with it as i please if i bough it.
do i have the wright to pass it on to my son if he wishes to lern pedal steel guitar.?
do i have the wright to use it as a tool to teach others?
thanks,
carlos

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 27 Oct 2005 10:07 am

I know that it is wrong to copy this material and sell or give away copies. I don't think it is wrong to sell the material when you are finished with it which would be no different than selling used CDs. Maybe those who publish learning material should have commercial breaks it the recordings and sell ad space to various vendors then encourage using the course then reselling it so new people would be exposed to the ads. This added exposure would increase the value of the advertising.
Jerry

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 27 Oct 2005 10:09 am

If I were in the business of selling intsructional courses, I would think about recycling myself.

Perhaps offer a trade in for GOOD used DVDs towards another instructional course. This would bring a lot of DVDs back to the original source instead of being sold freely on the open market. It would provide an incentive for folks to purchase new (or next level used) and additional courses.

You now have good used instructional courses for sale to those who would like to buy and must watch their budget, or for cheapos like me. The used price may encourage the purchase several courses instead of one.

You can sell the same item more that once, legitimatly. I wish I could do that.

You aren't going to beat them, may as well compete with them.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 27 October 2005 at 11:20 AM.]

Carlos Polidura · Post by **Carlos Polidura** » 27 Oct 2005 10:13 am

"i want to make it clear" i will not reproduce any copywrighted material to resell and make money of it.
that is unlawful............ it is not fair.
carlos

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 27 Oct 2005 10:16 am

do i have the wright to use it as a tool to teach others?

You may not,.....but JOE does!

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 27 Oct 2005 10:26 am

This topic is still activates a sore spot for me. A few years ago, when I was just starting out, I made a request on this Forum for used learning material. My biggest mistake was offering to purchase material Formites wanted to "RECYCLE"! I was roasted mercilessly using the same "cra-" lecture about small industry, poverty stricken authors, etc. I since purchased many Newman, Wright and others teaching materials, new and used, and all original material...no bootleg copies. The crazy thing was; while I was being roasted, there were used teaching materials listed on this Forum for sale!!! I am happy to now see so many members taking a "Free Enterprise" approach to this topic.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 27 Oct 2005 10:34 am

What if we were to give, as a gift mind you, our beginner's courses to somebody wanting to learn to play? That gets it out of the drawer or off the shelf and into the hands of someone who could truly use it; however, is that hurting the original producer of the material?

My son is taking guitar lessons from a very fine guitar instructor and has been sharing his knowledge with his friends. Is this okay to do? I'm the one that paid for the guitar lessons. Who is being hurt here, me or the guitar instructor?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Oct 2005 11:40 am

I understood Mikes comment to imply USED original materials..I think the words were just mixed up. if it was implied as COPIED I am certain Mike would have just told the GUY NO WAY, thats a violation of Copyright laws..Mike knows this stuff real well..

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 27 Oct 2005 12:31 pm

The way I see it. It's not a question of legalities, or whether one has the right to sell a used course once one is done with it. (And I don't mean bootleg copies.)

It's about supporting individual people, many of whom we know personally.

I don't know how much money Fran has, but I do know that a large percentage of her and Jeff's income came from private lessons and seminars, and obviosly, that's not happening any more.

Fran is not some big corporation. She is family. I think we should take care of our own.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Oct 2005 12:38 pm

General Motors needs the money more than any steel guitar guy does.

I'm not so sure about that, but given the current world of $20,000 - $40,000 new cars, I'd rather give my money to a "steel guitar guy" than Generous Motors. My personal value judgement, and I'm a guy that spent 5 years working in the automobile business in Detroit.

Seriously, Mike acknowledges there's nothing legally binding about this. I'm not against selling used training materials any more than I'm against selling used LPs, CDs, books, cars, or guitars. But I agree with his appeal for support of authors of steel guitar instructional material. We're a small community, and it's important to support these authors to the max extent possible. I differ only the the extent that I wouldn't question someone's need to buy used.

I think Howard has a great idea for authors to offer trade-ins on new or more advanced material. This is a win-win way to deal with this issue. An author could save the cost of reproducing older instructional materials and be able to offer used versions at a discount. This also provides additional incentive to authors to keep developing - one needs to have new material to encourage trade-ups. Ultimately, no matter what we say, the marketplace decides these things. One can't fight it.

I think we should take care of our own.

Of course, I agree.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 27 Oct 2005 1:59 pm

I think we should take care of our own.

I also agree, but it's idealistic, not realistic. People tend to take care of themselves.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 27 Oct 2005 5:32 pm

I don't see a problem with reselling courses to other players. I would be against anyone making copies of courses and then selling them. Being able to purchase some of the courses on the market at reduced prices is really a big help to players that are trying to pay for guitars and other equipment. I believe if an item is new and is sold, then the initial profit is then made. After that, it loses its value and can be simply sold or passed on to someone else that needs some help. I teach Psg at a reduced rate, simply so players can afford it. I just try to cover my mailing and tapes cost. What I've made selling lessons on tape won't even come close to the $25,000.00+ I've spent on guitars, amps and other equipment purchases in the last three or four years. ( Here's a sample: 4 new Carters, 1 new Emmons, 1 used Remington,2 used MSA's, 1 Fender 400 used, 3 new 112's, 2 new 1000's, 1 new FSK, 2 new Psg seats and the list continues.)