Jerry Garcia

Alex Piazza · Post by **Alex Piazza** » 8 Oct 2005 6:36 am

I remember hearing some of his real spacy insteumental PS tunes. Does anyone know how to find that stuff?

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 8 Oct 2005 7:55 am

I've never been a deadhead, but I think Jerry spawned the inspiration for a lot of great music. Personally, I love Jerry's guitar tone and his interesting use of the mixolydian scale which I always found refreshing in a world where pentatonics rule.

I found his approach to steel, as limited in technical scale as it was, to follow the same paths as his 6 string playing. Of course, his first ZB was only one serial number off from my own, so I might be a tad predjudiced.

I know that my trying to emulate his steel playing opened me up to some new pathways of exploration on the instrument because it forced me to think in a pattern that I was not used to, just like many others who have influenced my own style.

About Jambands, I don't know how you can deride the genre as there are some phenomenal bands and players out there. String Cheese Incident, Moe, The Jazz Mandolin Project, Jiggle the Handle, Hypnotic Clambake, Soul Live are some that come to mind who have some very good players, both technically and as improvisationsists. All, I am certain find their roots in Jerry Garcia.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 8 Oct 2005 8:11 am

FWIW, There is probably a ton of Jerry's recorded material right in your public library (there is in ours).

The spacy steel you are looking for is probably "The Wheel" on Jerry's first solo project "Garcia".

Thanks b0b!... for all you do!

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 08 October 2005 at 09:55 AM.]

Post by **b0b** » 8 Oct 2005 8:24 am

There has been entirely too much flame baiting in this topic. I've had to delete several of the off topic replies.

The discussion isn't about the cultural divide between "hippies" and whoever, it's about Jerry Garcia, a dead musician.

I'm going to correct the spelling of his name in the title now out of respect for his memory. Let's keep it on topic, and see if we can "agree to disagree" on the cultural issues without throwing mud around, okay?

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Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 8 Oct 2005 9:27 am

Oh man, again. Can’t folks just let this be? Ad nauseum, ad infinitum...The fact is that it wasn’t Jerry’s fault that he was voted the best pedal steel player back in 1970...he didn’t like it any more than some of you The fact is that it wasn’t his fault that the intro to TYC became by far the most recognizable pedal steel intro on any song...ever. None of the many heroes of this forum have come close to attaining that, and they never will. Not the Big E, not Hal Rugg, not Lloyd Green, not not Jay Dee, nobody. Better players? Of course. Masters and vituosos? You bet, but none of them played the most widely-recognizable intro ever. It was Jerry. Again, not his fault.

Because of that cool intro, he ended up turning a whole generation onto the instrument, which most of you SHOULD think is pretty cool...and probably would if it had been someone else. That’s a shame as far as I’m concerned. It was Jerry...live with it...please.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Oct 2005 9:42 am

Steinar explained my point of view pretty well.

And Barry, as far as: "I guess one could surmise that 'Wipe Out' is a friggin' masterpiece"

Yes - it is. And it's been regarded a such for decades. I just think you're on a different wavelength - you appear to require technical superiority for music to be (to you) high quality.

To me, that's unfortunate in that it severely limits your willingness to be exposed to different types of music. But it's your choice.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 8 Oct 2005 10:39 am

I have to agree with Jim here. Technical ability does NOT equate to musicality or great artistic expression. There are some great artistic players on steel guitar. Emmons for me being number one. I saw Garcia play live in his prime a few times. Twice on pedal steel. Artisticly Garcia was world class and had the ability to move you in your seat when he played. Just like Keith Richards or Chuck Berry. He WAS Garcia. There was no other. Garcia along with Sneaky Pete, Rusty Young, Perkins, and Buddy Cage inspired this whole fifty something generation to take up the instrument. I perfectly understand the technical agrument.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Oct 2005 12:59 pm

Jerry was a fine lead player, a good banjo player, and a very average rock-steeler. I'm not great either, by any means, so that's none of that's an insult. His "great" ride on TYC may be great...in your mind...but it's not a great ride in any other sense. Yes, it fits the song...of course it fits the song!!! It's an average ride, in an average song, by a very average band. And if it were left at that, most steelers here (who aren't idols of Jerry, that goofy little song, CSN, or the Dead) would not get so vehemently upset. It's only when you try to elevate his mediocrity as a steel player to "pinnacle status" that you lose respect among real great players (and those who idolize them). Respect him. Admire him. Emulate him, if you like. Just stop trying to convince anyone else that he was so great. He wasn't. Neither was his band.

If he inspired you, that's great. That's wonderful. I'm happy for you. Now, GET OVER IT! Not one person in a million has heard of the guy who inspired me. I could care less if he inspired me, or a thousand others. It ain't that big a deal. It's between me and him...an that's all! I'm not goofy enough to idolize him, or Jerry, Or Buddy, or Lloyd, or anyone else, for that matter.

Inspiring someone is not a conscious act! It can't be planned! It creates a debt of gratitide for ONLY the player who is inspired. Everyone else could care less!

DID YOU HEAR THAT????

Everyone who wasn't "inspired" by a player (any player, regardless of WHO he was) could care less!

(Well, except maybe, in this case, the steel builders!

)

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 8 Oct 2005 2:39 pm

Donny H, I agree with much of your post, but not on your assessment of CSNY as average. Many here would disagree. JP

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Oct 2005 2:53 pm

"He wasn't. Neither was his band."

First, CSNY wasn't his band - The Dead was.

And your judgements are merely personal opinion. I'm not a huge CSNY or Dead fan, but I'd cetainly put both above average - again, personal opinion. But the minute you start saying "he wasn't good, and neither was his band" you're doing exactly what the folks are who idolize him, but in a reverse fashion.

Hipocrisy defined.

Here's a heck of a concept - how about the people that like the song and/or solo feeling free to express their positive opinion, and those who don't like it expressing their opinion that it wasn't that great *technically* - but without stating "he sucked" as a fact...since it's not. It's opinion. If you like it, he didn't suck.

Man, there are some opinionated folks on here that are locked into either maintaining country music's purity or technical perfection on the steel.

Loosen up folks. And if you open you minds a little bit you might have some fun too.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 8 Oct 2005 3:04 pm

Jerry was a fine lead player, a good banjo player, and a very average rock-steeler. .... It's only when you try to elevate his mediocrity as a steel player to "pinnacle status" that you lose respect among real great players (and those who idolize them).

My thoughts exactly. Garcia acquitted himself admirably on TYC, but as nice as his playing is on that track, it's still pretty elementary stuff, and can't compare with the work done by all the really great players who dedicated their lives to the steel.

By all means, enjoy TYC, but don't try to tell me (as countless clueless rockers have) that Garcia was the greatest steel player in the world.

John Young · Post by **John Young** » 8 Oct 2005 3:09 pm

i play this tune every weekend behind a 29 year oid singer THE RESPONSE TO THIS TUNE PHENOMINAL

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 8 Oct 2005 4:08 pm

We play it in my duo too. And people love it. And when they love our music they love us. That's what it's all about. We make them feel good, they reciprocate. In our own world, we're heroes.

In fact, we play a lot of those old hippy steel guitar tunes. They bring back memories for people, (me included) so they must have been good songs for many.

Really, how many songs out there today really require any great degree of steel guitar prowess? I don't think I would consider myself more than lower-end-mediocre as a steeler--certainly not as good as I am on keys or guitar. Yet, I could adequately play most-not all-of the steel parts in most country music being released today. But, compare me with the Paul Franklin's, Steve Hinsons, Buddy's, Jay Dee's, Lloyd's of the world? That's flat out hilarious.

Jerry probably could play better than he revealed on vinyl, but he even admitted that he was barely a student of the instrument. Pete Grant probably knows more about Jerry's skills as a steeler than anyone on the forum. The rest of us are speculating.

I hear lots of Franklin's parts in songs that, while tasteful, don't give me enough to be able to ascertain whether or not he is a world class player, yet we know what he is capable of.

It's like I said in an earlier post, enjoy TYC or hate it,for what it is, it's your choice.

Personally, I love that whole era--Buffalo Springfield, The Byrds, Manassas, NRPS, CSN&Y, Poco, Souther, Hillman, Furay. It means a lot to me. Many great memories. Much early musical influence there. I'm having a blast playing it again now that I am a 50 something.

I am probably a better jazz B3 player than anything else. I've played lots of jazz, progressive rock, fusion--all perhaps more technically challenging than some of the country rock stuff, but the country rock is still some of my favorite music. It's right up there with Big Band and Western Swing and Mcoy Tyner and Oscar Pedersen in my book.

I've never understood why some people take such a narrow view of music. Does it all have to be technical to be good? Can't you just enjoy music for what it is? Why do we have to draw lines and pick sides? Life is short. I derive much more pleasure from it by enjoying the musical contributions from all backgrounds. It expands me as a player and a person, I believe.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 8 Oct 2005 4:09 pm

Jerry played a D10 MCI with Bob Dylan in the 80's.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 09 October 2005 at 10:32 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 Oct 2005 2:42 am

Good or bad, he was influential; what other steeler has engendered this much controversy?

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 9 Oct 2005 2:52 am

Robert Randolph.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Oct 2005 5:16 am

Jim Sliff...if you're going to quote me, please get it right!

But the minute you start saying "he wasn't good, and neither was his band" you're doing exactly what the folks are who idolize him, but in a reverse fashion.

This is what I really said...(go back and read it yourself)

It's an average ride, in an average song, by a very average band.

and...

Just stop trying to convince anyone else that he was so great. He wasn't. Neither was his band.

See? I never said he was "bad", or his band was "bad"! I said his steelplaying was "average, and his band (CSNY or GD) was average. That's right...plain average. I even sat through a Grateful Dead concert (Winterland) with a friend, and I could see the "idol-eyes" in his head, he was transfixed! I thought they were about as good as a hundred bar-bands I'd seen over the years.

Look guys, I don't care how many gazillion fans someone's got, how many gazillion records they sold, or how many gazillion people they "inspired", because personally, I don't judge things by "the affirmation of the masses". You can, but don't expect me to do it.

I use my own eyes and ears. I base my judgements on everything I've seen and heard previously, and I draw my own conclusions. Of course, it's an opinion. You don't have to like it or agree with it.

Picasso? Yeah, he was just an average painter. Richest painter ever. Sold more paintings than anybody else. He's go a gazillion fans that idolize him, too. But I still don't think of him as a "great painter".

Why?

Because I've seen too many other painters that were better! Not as famous, not as rich, and not with nearly as many fans.

But they were still better painters.

Gary Spaeth · Post by **Gary Spaeth** » 9 Oct 2005 5:42 am

I'm watching "Run Lola Run" again. one of these Jerry Garcia threads will get it right and the show will end. (but it sure is fun while it lasts HE!HE!)

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Oct 2005 6:55 am

Donny - as long as you claify your statements as opinion, I don't disagree with you, because opinions are always valid. But you stated things in a way that presented them as "fact", and that's where you become wrong.

"In your opinion" The Dead, CSNY and whoever were "average" bands. Those first three words are key, and not the same as saying "the Dead and CSNY were average bands" - which is totally incorrect statement.

When you mix fact and opinion, you end up with a food fight. As I implied in an earlier post, folks who don't like Garcia's playing should simply say THEY don't like it - because they can't say it's bad playing with any validity.

My opinion - Garcia's steel playing (not just in TYC) is not the most skilled playing by any means (which he readily admitted himself), but it has style and some fun things in it that many people like. Technically, it's mediocre. Stylistically, it sounds like Jerry Garcia - and I think it's a great musical talent to have your style show through on many different instruments...where no matter what gadget you play, you sound like yourself.

I'm not a Dead fan nor a CSNY fan, but I think those fans are perfectly valid in their statements that "TYC" has good steel playing in it in their opinion. They would be wrong to say he was the greatest steel player on the planet though. Because there simply isn't a "greatest steel player" as long as there is more than one listener.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 9 Oct 2005 7:19 am

I apologize for tainting the Jerry Garcia pool with my opinion. Once again, I've been misquoted, misrepresented, and misinterpreted. As a result, I'm not going swimming here anymore.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 Oct 2005 7:44 am

You're right, Barry; I can't imagine why anyone with any intelligence is still here. Maybe I can get this pond closed due to hazardous levels of pollution, as the bottom feeders are starting to rise to get the scum on top. This has all been said before, and everybody knows about opinions. Jerry sucks, Picasso sucks, and one poster suggests that I would be a good replacement for hippies, as they suck. I'd say this is all said in good fun, but it's not. And it's sure not about pedal steel.

Several cool heads are trying to prevail; I congratulate Webb, for one, on his popular musical history knowlege as well as his diplomacy; Steinar always seeks a balance.

But this Jerry-bashing fest has moved beyond into a fo'bro bashing frenzy, and it shows a level of immaturity that can be really irritating on this forum sometimes. Even the most innocent statement become cannon fodder.
No wonder guys take their balls and go home.

I'd take this to feedback, but nobody bothers anymore. So maybe some moderator will take my post as so far off-topic that the whole playroom will get taped off with POLICE LINE: DO NOT CROSS.

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 9 Oct 2005 8:24 am

Mike,

Often it's the "elementary stuff" that is the best. It doesn't matter how "good" you are technically -- or fast. If you place the right notes in the right spot (with somewhat of a finese), that's what counts. I'd rather hear something meaningful like Bruce Springsteen's six or so guitar notes at the intro of Born to Run than most of what anybody played fast or "technically" superior (although I appreciate technical ability).

"Ear Candy" we call it!

But this debate is really useless, because there will always be three groups of people -- (1) those who like the art films, (2) those who like blockbusters that have easy themes to grasp, and (3) those who like both.

Obviously we have all three groups here represented quite well. The elitists in group 1, the happy-go-luckys in group 2, and the opened-minded people in group 3.

Ta da!

Al

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 9 Oct 2005 8:41 am

It's very easy to confuse one's personal tastes and opinions with absolute and universal truths.
It's usually not a very good idea though...

Have a nice Sunday!

Steinar

------------------
www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 09 October 2005 at 09:42 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Oct 2005 9:24 am

Well said, Steinar.

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 9 Oct 2005 9:28 am

All this fuss over someone who simply used a steel guitar to express more emotion than I'll probably EVER be able to pour into my music.

I was listening yesterday to some Marshall Tucker stuff. The steel work done by Toy Caldwell on those old classics could very well be compared to Jerry Garcia's steel work. They both sound a little more than out of tune in spots BUT, would those classics be classics if technically they both were great players AND perfectly in tune?

For me, they are perfect examples of how music has the wonderful ability to take us back to another time. I think the imperfection of both players mentioned is what gives those songs the charm that makes them the classics they are.

Rick
P.S. As always just my opinion for what its worth.[This message was edited by Rick Garrett on 09 October 2005 at 10:32 AM.]