Applicable Modes to Learn

Kevin Bullat · From: Huntington Beach, CA

Well, as much as I've resisted spending any time working on modes, I guess I need to start.

What would be the most applicable modes for someone like myself, that plays Hawaiian and Western Swing, to learn?

Michael Garnett · From: Seattle, WA

I'll ask my teachers, but I'll betcha they say "All of em."

Ionian and Mixolydian are probably the most frequent you'll play. Lydian is another neat major mode, but unless you're covering Beatles tunes, you might not play it so much. And you'll probably play more Dorian than Aeolian.

-MG

Kevin Bullat · From: Huntington Beach, CA

Thanks for the info Micheal, guess I'll start learning something...

AJ Azure · From: Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Absoltuely all of them but, Ionian, Lydian, mixolydian and Aeolian shoudlbe your first priorities. Thsoe are I, IV, V and vi (relative minor)

John Bushouse · Posted 19 Oct 2005 1:03 pm

Ionian for sure; Hoopiian is also very helpful.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Kevorkian mode is my favorite.

Bill Bosler · From: Schwenksville, Pennsylvania, USA

Ala mode - I'm sorry. I couldn't resist it.

Mike Ihde · From: Boston, MA

I have to stick my 2 cents in...modes are way over rated...they are just a major scale starting on different degrees. The white notes on a piano are all in the key of C, play any chord from the key of (Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5) and play anything you want as long as they're white notes and you'll be playing the modes. So what's the big deal? CHORD TONES!!
You must always play notes from the chord of the moment and fill inbetween with notes from the scale.
Cmaj7 is C, E, G and B the left over notes are D, F and A. You use them to go between the chord tones. Now go to Dm7, the notes are D, F, A and C, the inbetween notes are E, G and B, those are now passing tones.
Learn to play arpeggios (broken chords) of every chord there is and you'll never play a bad note. Learn the major scale so you can connect the chord tones with scale tones and you'll be playing the modes. Not exactly rocket science.
Agreed I've oversimplified it a bit, but just a bit. It's really not that big of a deal.

Michael Garnett · From: Seattle, WA

Mike,

I'll have to respectfully disagree. The modes are what give an individual song their flavor. Just arpeggiating chords is probably okay for super fast jazz tunes, but the passing tones (4 and 7 in Major modes, 2 and 6 in Minor) are what make the individual chords and melodies interesting. Imagine "Eleanor Rigby" without the Lydian 4th. (1(El) 2(lea) 3(nor) 1(Rig) 6(by) -- 1 2 3 5 #4 3 #4 3 2 3 2 1 2---)

It's easy if you try. (Sorry for the bad joke, I got to re-reading my post and saw the opportunity)

Since we're generalizing, If you don't see the need to learn modes, the only scales you need to know are Major and Minor Pentatonic, and maybe some non-diatonic blues scales, if you're in to that sort of thing. Those at least have 2 more notes apiece per chord over arpeggiating, and sound good over any mode. (Use Major for Ion, Lyd, and Mix... Use Minor for Phryg, Aeol, Dor.) To reiterate, it's the 4th and 7th scale degrees that make modes special. To remove them is to sterilize one's ability to truly demonstrate the chord being played at that time.

And for AJ, I'm pretty sure that most minor chords in modern music are built on the dorian minor scale. I'll check that out later today.

Happy Picking. I'm still trying to figure out what those other 5 pedals do for my 6th neck.

-MG

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Sorry Michael, but that's not a "Lydian 4th" in Eleanor Rigby--it's an E Dorian.

Modes are used as "chord-scales". A "chord-scale" is a scale that is used for melodic improvisation on a particular chord type when it functions in a particular way within a chord progression.

When you are starting out, a chord-scale can really be thought of as an ARPEGGIO with some extra colour tones thrown in.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

PS--I think Mike Ihde nailed it, but it's not until you've actually learned this stuff that you really can agree with this concept. It's all about arpeggios and color tones. Scales and modes are merely the building blocks.

Todd Pertll · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

I have to agree with Mike Ihde also. Concentrating on chord tones is the way to go. I took some jazz improv classes in college and we always concentrated on arpeggiating the chords first. Since they are chord tones they will obviously get the most emphasis. Have you ever ended a solo on the Major 4 of a I chord? sounds bad.

Kevin Bullat · From: Huntington Beach, CA

Wow! Thanks for all the info folks.

I have a fair amount of literature on the modes. I think I'll first learn them and then decide to what extent I need them.

Todd Pertll · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

I guess I don't understand what there is to learn. I mean it's the same scale you just start and end on a different note.

Russ Rickmann · From: Texas, USA

This is an interesting discussion to say the least, and one that will be debated until the end of time. And I will agree with Mike on his thoughts on this. Know your chord tones and scales and how to apply them. If you’re going to play bop bear in mind that you want the chord tones to fall more often than not on the first and third beat to emphasize that chord, and place your choice of chromatic passing tones on the up beats.

I suppose the question would be, how many players actually think, we’ll I’m going to play this mode over this particular chord? C’mon, if you’re thinking that you’re not playing music, you’re practicing!

JMHO…….Russ

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Knowing modes on their own is basically meaningless--you must know the function of chord first, and then use modes as a tool to determine the appropriate extensions and color tones for any given chord. They are not rules, just really helpful suggestions.

For instance, if you were in the key of C and you played the progression: C Em F G, knowing that the Em functions as the iii chord, the mode for it would be E Phrygian. If you examine E Phrygian: E F G A B C D E, you'll see that an incorrect extension in this case would be a maj 9th (F# in an E major scale), as the 9th degree of the Phrygian is an F. This is just the most basic example I could think of.

And yes, this is stuff you do in practicing. The game of jazz is in trying to substitute chords and create harmonic movement where none previously existed.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 21 October 2005 at 09:17 AM.]

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 21 October 2005 at 09:18 AM.]

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 21 October 2005 at 11:28 AM.]

Mike Neer · From: NJ

To expand on that, if you took the progression C Em A7 D, the E minor chord has a different function--it's that of a ii chord in the cadence ii-V leading to D. In this case you'd use the Dorian mode, or E F# G A B C# D E.

AJ Azure · From: Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Mike,
how un-Berklee of you lol I agree though sometimes modes are way over complicated.

By the way I knwot hat Dorian is heavily used. I gave soemoen whow as just barely starting a lifeline to first grip on to in a standard style, say country first, ie 1,4,5.

My only beef with concentrating only on chord tones is *fan fare* non-chrodal music. Anything with a pedal tone /riff style setting, free improv, etc.

Within the parameters of the original question,working around chords to start with is the best way to go for sure.The onyl porblem with this i sueprimposition of other tonalities and substitutions aren't as readily available if you don't understand the modal theory/chord scale thought pattern.

[This message was edited by AJ Azure on 21 October 2005 at 12:24 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Mike I. is right.

Work on playing melodic lines instead of "typewriter" sounding mode licks. That is the most boring crap you would ever want to hear.

Pick a tune that you really like.
Learn the melody of the tune FIRST!!! Not some convoluted riffing melody either. Learn the REAL melody.
Learn the basic chords.
Learn a nice set of chord substitutions.
Learn a nice turn around to get back into the verse.
Learn a nice turn around to get into the chorus.
Learn a chord solo for the tune.

If you know this about a song you can solo over the song even if you don't consider yourself a strong improvisor. You can use arpeggios of the chord substitutions with a few connecting notes and you will have a very nice sounding solo totally devoid of rote sounding modal licks. You can also take the melody of the song after you have stated it once correctly and then do a little grooving around with it. So many tricks you can do rather than just fire off some of the modes.

Forget about modes unless you want to sound like every other 18 year old fusion player at your local rock music school.

I listened to Jerry Byrd cuts on the Byrd fan site. No modal playing at all. Just wonderful melodic licks and impeccable taste in chords and touch. THAT is worth studying.

Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

Great thread. But it makes me curious about the chord substitutions that jazz thrives on.

What are the most effective ways to create alternate chords?

An "ear player"s approach might be to experiment, listen, remember, steal, etc.
Maybe come up with an alternate melody that would suggest different chords.

How would having some music theory under your belt help with this?
Does an understanding of modes actually make it any easier to generate cool substitute chord sequences? --Steve

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Mike Ihde · From: Boston, MA

Look at it this way...if you learn to play a C major scale all over the steel, or even in just one postion, you already know how to play all the modes found in a major key wether you know it or not. When someone says lets jam on a D dorian thing, you know it's going to be a minor 7 sound, or an F lydian thing will be F Major 7 with a sharp 4 sound. But the parent scale is still good 'ol C major. Your job is to make sure you play the notes that count for the chord that's occuring at the moment. What notes are those? Chord tones and tensions. On that Dm7 you can play a lot of D, F, A and C but it'll sound a lot hipper if you play more of C, E and G (7, 9 and 11) to show off the higher number tensions that contain all the color. On that F maj7 try E, G and B (7, 9 #11) but they're still chord tones. To get from one chord tone to the other you just play notes in the key of C. True, you'll end up playing a mode, but so what! Just play in the key and add in the cool notes and think MELODY!

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Miller. Just get a book on chord progressions and play through them. A good study will show you the basic Mickey Mouse changes and then show several more passes with some meatier chords.

Edit. I did a google search on "chord progressions and chord substitutions". So much stuff came back it was amazing. All kinds of books and on line info.

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 21 October 2005 at 06:12 PM.]

Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

Howard-- I appreciate your response. I do have some knowledge of chord construction, I can tell you how to build an augmented chord, a 13th, etc. Give me a chord (in context)and I can work out the corresponding scale or mode, though I might not be able to name the mode. What knowledge I have has trained my ear a bit.

Trying to get to the next step, though-- there are folks with a more developed ear and better understanding of theory than me around here..thus the question I threw out to the jazz players and anybody else-- how do YOU come up with good chord substitutions? Or put another way: what helped you the most to do this?

Mike-- Melody, tension, color...thanks for that, those 3 words will fit nicely on a mental banner...I really appreciate the musical illustration.

Bill-- I know you're right, there's all kinds of stuff out there. Time to hit the books again. --Steve

[This message was edited by Stephan Miller on 21 October 2005 at 07:07 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Me too.

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