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Topic: Would you? |
Bob Knetzger
From:
Kirkland, WA USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2005 6:59 pm |
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I got this via email today:
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Hi Bob,
My name is Xxxxx Xxxx--I am the owner of a small company that produces royalty-free loop production libraries and am looking for an experienced pedal steel player to do a work for hire session. I was referred to you by Zzzzz Zzzzzzzzz who thought you might be interested.
The session would take place at my home studio, last about 2 hours, and consist of improvisation in multiple keys/tempos over drum beats or basic song ideas. I would also be open to your using classical public domain pieces or standards as your source of inspiration.
In terms of compensation, I have worked with musicians before, and $100 has usually been sufficient as a consideration. I would also want you to sign a work for hire agreement as part of the arrangement.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Best Regards,
Yyyyyy Yyyyyyyy
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Would you do this session?
I sure wouldn't... |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2005 7:14 pm
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I personally would do it for 100.00 an hour without signing a "work for hire aggreement"; and 200.00 an hour to sign; but has to be stated that's what I get every time I come in for a session.
Ricky |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2005 8:08 pm
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| Yeah, but sneak something "pitchy" into the middle of every lick. A little slant that puts part of a chord maddeningly out of tune. Take the money. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 12:35 pm
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No!  The more people who do this sort of thing, the fewer steelers will be eventually hired by small studios. For me, ethics outweighs any money that might be involved.
Sorta like..."cutting your own throat", isn't it? |
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Ben Slaughter
From:
Madera, California
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 3:16 pm
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| Well, someone's going to to do it, so we've all got to deal with the reality. |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 3:38 pm
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| Ben, that kind of logic says "Somebody's gonna steal a nuclear device someday and use it." Well, it ain't gonna be ME. I agree with Donny, no way, no how. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 3:57 pm
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| Nope |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 3:57 pm
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Ben's right. Somebody's gonna do it.
Besides, loops like that are already available.
Take the money, and do your best.
related issue:
Has Karakoe hurt live bands? You betcha.
A few months ago I attended a seminar by one of the world's best Steelers (a HOF member) who had no issues in telling the class his best studio account was a Karakoe Producer.
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 4:00 pm
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I just went to Google and searched for
"Steel Guitar Loops"
There's a lot more than I thought!
You're not going to hurt anyone by adding a few more. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 4:14 pm
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Of course, there's always the argument..."Somebody's going to do it, might as well be me". Sorry, I just can't think that way. I also couldn't go in and do a half-assed job and just grab the money. I have this terrible thing called a "conscience", and these rationalizations just won't over-ride that.
It's no different than if someone were to offer me $5000 for my old beat-to-hell MSA Classic. Much as I would like and could use the money, I'd have to say..."no".
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 4:22 pm
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I have turned down that same offer. So the answer, for me, is NO. I do know that there are samples that are available and I've heard a couple of pretty convincing examples. I don't want any part of reducing studio work for steel players (especially ME). 
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 4:28 pm
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I wouldn't be all that scared about the use of instrumental loops. Most of the people who use them wouldn't afford a live player anyway, so if the loop wasn't available he'd find some other 'sound' to fill in his little masterpiece. Most use them for demoing their songs in their home studio.
Pre-recorded instrumental loops (I'm excluding drum loops here) are so limited in how you can use them that I wouldn't worry.
Single-note samples is a totally different matter, a good keyboardist who knows a bit about how the sampled instrument is supposed to be played, equipped with a good set of samples, can produce some quite scary results.
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 12 July 2005 at 05:29 PM.] [This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 12 July 2005 at 05:45 PM.] |
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Larry Weaver
From:
Asheville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 5:17 pm
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I completely agree with Steinar on this. The market for these sort of loops is completely different than the market that would look to hire a live player for session work. Most of these loops are used by multimedia producers, corporate media departments and broadcast designers who have VERY small budgets, and need almost immediate results.
I totally agree that the real danger to the PSG community would be providing high quality single string samples. This would worry me, far more than loops, since a talented keyboard player who is well versed in the software can indeed produce results that would make one's head turn. Good thing though is that so far there are very few of those guys around that are paying much attention to the PSG.
-Larry W[This message was edited by Larry Weaver on 12 July 2005 at 06:19 PM.] |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 6:00 pm
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Larry, all I can tell you is that I've gotten calls from a bunch of guys who fit the description you describe in the past. I've done numerous radio spots, training film soundtracks, and stuff used in marketing various products. If you need a steel for a small piece of music you can get it for $50-100 (what I've often settled for). I hate to see that kind of work dry up and feel strongly that providing ANY type of samples for someone to slice and dice puts future work in jeopardy.
Just my opinion. I've been there.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 6:40 pm
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| First thing I do with anyone wanting me to do studio/session work of any kind is to make calls if necessary and check this person out if I don't know them or if they don't have a reputation already for work. If everything checks out ok, then I'll usually talk with them and see exactly what they need the steel guitar parts for. If it's something that's ok then we'll talk money. I use a set fee agreed to in advance for a certain number of songs. Any songs added increases the fee. My fee depends on the budget the session leader is working with. If moneys no problem, then we'll usually start with a figure of around 350.00 and work up to 700.00 or so. If money is really tight, then 150.00 is the lowest I go whether it's one song or ten. If I feel like it's not ok and a person is not being totally honest then I'll turn it down. I have before. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2005 10:53 pm
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| In terms of compensation, I have worked with musicians before, and $100 has usually been sufficient as a consideration. |
"...has usually been sufficient..." meaning that, this asshole doesn't think that you are worth any more than that. I'm sorry, but I hate these people and this comment hit one of my "hot buttons". Maybe I'm a little sensative, after nearly 30 years in the entertainment business, but having had to listen to some arrogant d*ckhead try to "grind" me for a couple hundred bucks and then drive off in a $100,000 car.....need I say more.
Having said that, if you're going to do these kind of sessions, you want $200/hr, that's the going rate. |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Jul 2005 5:04 am
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Me too, on both sides of the table. My point hasn't got anything to do with whether this is wright or wrong, I fully understand the reservations about doing such work.
But really, the letter called for "improvisation in multiple keys/tempos over drum beats or basic song ideas." - The reality is that these kind of "instrumental licks/loops" rarely fits on anything but perhaps some short lick in a sound collage or something.
I have a large collection of sample CDs - I have to, to be able to come up with 'the right stuff' on short notice when I do a TV commercial or similar (my latest TV commercial came with a 24-hour deadline, no way I could have hired other musicians at three in the morning) - and many of these features some sort of instrument loops in addition to the single-note samples.
I have yet to find ONE loop that has fit into any of my work, I always use the single-note samples and 'play' the instrument from my synth. The chance of finding an 'improvised lick' - that is what's being asked for here - that fits with your work is microscopic.
I'd say that 95% of those who would use such loops are either only recording very rough scetches of their songs, or they are so 'casual' about their work that none of us would have wanted to work for them in the first place. Neither of them would have been able to (or wanted to) pay us anything near a decent fee.
So, while I fully understand the reservations about doing such a job, I'm simply trying to say that these sort of prerecorded licks and loops represents little, if any, threat to real musicians. They are useless, most of the time (uh, the loops...  ).
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 13 July 2005 at 06:33 AM.] |
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Marty Pollard
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Posted 13 Jul 2005 7:07 am
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| A little slant that puts part of a chord maddeningly out of tune. |
Hmmm... sounds familiar.  [This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 13 July 2005 at 08:08 AM.] |
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Drew Howard
From:
48854
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Posted 13 Jul 2005 10:02 am
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I've recorded sound efx samples for a local cartoon show, some C6 slides and other cliches.
No solos. As I recall I got about $150.00 for the session. Didn't have to sign anything.
Do whatever you think is best.
Drew
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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3
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Ben Slaughter
From:
Madera, California
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Posted 13 Jul 2005 2:28 pm
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For the record, I don't think I would take this kind of job (even if I were able ) My point was that we, as steel players, are going to have to deal with this situation at some point, because someone will take the job.
On the flip side, I agree with the argument that the market and usefulness of these types of "canned" licks is EXTREMELY limited. I just don't see how it could work, at least in the recording I do. Besides, I would probably spend more time listening to 500 canned licks, trying to find the right one, on the right beat, in the right key, than I would if I hired a player to record something REAL. MIDI technology will have to come a long way before single note samples of PSG will sound believable. Fixed note instruments are a different story.
The nuclear weapon analogy is a long slippery slope.
[This message was edited by Ben Slaughter on 13 July 2005 at 03:29 PM.] |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 13 Jul 2005 7:10 pm
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Steinar,
Are you saying that you OFTEN have to produce a spot with a 24 hour deadline?????? Must be an interesting (and ulcer-laden) career.
One solution is for the producer/engineer to play a whole bunch of instruments, I suppose, but it still sounds like Prozac city to me.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2005 9:59 pm
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| Larry, I know composers out here, who are trying to break into the business. One of the ways they get taken advantage of is, a producer will need music for a commercial so he asks 6 composers to score it, then he picks the one he likes, and that is the guy who gets paid. |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 13 Jul 2005 10:45 pm
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This kind of session just has a bad feeling about it. It's the kind of session you get asked to play and know you'll regret down the road. The fact that you're showing us this request proves that your conscience is at odds with what you're being asked to do. It's just plain lame, and every one knows that deep down, money or not. Speaking of the money, to leave your house and lug that steel to a place that doesn't move you in some way - there has to be more than 100 bucks attached to it. I've charged $200 for one song on the steel because it is just as much work to load that thing in for one song as it is for twenty.
My bottom line would be $1,000. And once that was spent on the many bills and payments (that eventually get paid anyway), I'd regret doing it. |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 14 Jul 2005 1:12 am
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quote:
Steinar,
Are you saying that you OFTEN have to produce a spot with a 24 hour deadline?????? Must be an interesting (and ulcer-laden) career.
Nope, thanks God! It would have killed me...
I prefer to concentrate on my own music in peace and quiet, and teach guitar students to have an income I can depend on. But I do "commercial" jobs now and then, everything from TV commercials to station-IDs and jingles (made all music for a 6-episode TV series that was aired earlier this year, that was an interesting job). The TV commercials are too well paid to turn down,- the "24-hour" commercial earned me the same as teaching one student for approx 2 years...
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 14 July 2005 at 02:13 AM.] [This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 14 July 2005 at 02:42 AM.] |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Posted 14 Jul 2005 3:56 am
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| I'm simply trying to say that these sort of prerecorded licks and loops represents little, if any, threat to real musicians. |
Thats what they use to say about Karoke.
Hook
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www.HookMoore.com
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