C6th lap steel modal theory site

Dwayne Martineau · Post by **Dwayne Martineau** » 19 May 2004 8:29 am

(Edited to add this question)

So, what exactly is meant by "church modes"? Just a family of common modes or something? Are they all built on the same sequence of intervals?

I'm fairly versed in theory, but I've never heard this phrase before.

Etymology, anyone?

-Dm[This message was edited by Dwayne Martineau on 19 May 2004 at 12:01 PM.]

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 19 May 2004 9:21 am

As the "father" of this thread I respectfully suggest that you don't take up b0b's bandwidth with any more "wow this the biggest thread" posts. If you can add musical content - great. Personally, I think it would make it easier to follow if it were closed and split into a couple of threads.

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 19 May 2004 2:17 pm

Hi Dad. If I'm not badly mistaken, bandwidth is used only for a page displayed (with the remaining pages still sitting on the HD just like the other thousands of SGF pages), although a smidgin of server HD space of probably around .0001% would be used by this thread. If I'm wrong please let me know and I'll darn sure send bOb a check for $20 to pay for the overload; You've probably already made up any difference in commissions to bOb for your excellent publications.

And hey, what's up; Mom sent me to the store this morning for a loaf of bread and when I got back home you guys had moved ! Didn't have anything to do with my new "big" biker chick girlfriend I brought home last night did it? She is gonna get her nose and teeth fixed, you know.

Aloha,
RHRF,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 19 May 2004 at 03:28 PM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 19 May 2004 2:52 pm

Dwayne,

Church modes is a not-uncommon slang word meaning modes derived from a Major 7 scale. We inherited modal approaches to the Maj7 scale from about 400 years of Classical Music theory.

But when jazz guys during the be-bop era started experimenting around with "moding" more exotic scales and moding each of the modes of the Maj7 scale off of each other; Then the term "church modes" appeared "tongue in cheek" to mean modes of the Maj7 scale like this discussion chain is based upon, and to differentiate those simple first generation modes of the Maj7 scale from exotic modes such as the Super Locrian discussed earlier in this discussion chain.

Aloha,
Denny T~

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 2 Jun 2004 7:08 pm

.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 02 June 2004 at 10:30 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Nov 2004 5:05 am

Reference bump

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 31 May 2005 10:35 am

I was surfing the net for aeolian polytonal theory apoproaches and came upon a heated discussion we had. **I said a guitar player would not play the G major scale against the band playing A dorian because the scale tones of G major don't fall on the 1,3,5 and 7 chord tone degrees of A minor/dorian like A dorian would if the band was playing in A minor chord/dorian, which is why we have certain modes for certain chord types as a first choice. Playing related modes of a parent major scale does work and sound good just by accident, so I want to clarify that statement and clear this up for Denny and Rick. I do use related modes/etc. for smooth jazz and it comes up with some nice sounding stuff that I'm not worrying about the theory of it, go figure? Thanks <[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 01 June 2005 at 02:27 PM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 1 Jun 2005 4:07 am

JESSE MON...... GREAT to hear from you. HOW YA BEEN GUY!? We been missin' ya and wonderin' where ya been and whatcha doin'

.

I hope and trust all is going well for you and yerz in Sandy Eggo.

-------

Last Saturday night I hosted a beach party for 25th Infantry guys coming back from the oil / heroin war. Late in the evening we were sitting around with a few guitars and a harmonica picker. He could wail on dom7 cross-harp Blues ...but was lost on minor progressions. So I did a little cross-harp mental math (a real brain strain) to translate / transpose his harp key selection so it would sub for minor mode even though he was still "sucking dom7" cross-harp licks. It worked like a charm. With just a little note & technique surfing, he's suddenly blowing minor harp he had just said he couldn't do. We wound up doing cross-harp subs for all 7 modes to show him what he COULD do! Of course it wouldn't have got him into Berkelee ...but that's not the point!

Aloha,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 01 June 2005 at 05:09 AM.]

Larry W. Jones · Post by **Larry W. Jones** » 1 Jun 2005 5:08 am

Not many posts get this many replies so soon. It's a gold mine worth the time! Many thanks.

------------------
Return to Paradise! Visit Island Song Lyrics

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Jun 2005 6:00 am

Holy Modal Rollers, Batman!

Just one reply from a small brain, regarding Sleepwalk chorus:

Chorus F Fm C F C
F Fm C Bb C G7

Shouldn't the Bb be Eb? Anyone? Anyone?
Sure, there's a Bb in Eb, different voicing.... but much can be implied when not overstated.

I am happy to have grown up with piano theory, which explains why I can follow threads by Chas Smith and Mike Neer more easily, thinking linearly rather than vertically.
The first time I heard of the different modes--I mean, Ionic and Doric were column capitals to me--was from young guitar students, fluent in this manner of speaking; and I wondered: do they actually use this in practice? I grew up playing Blind George Shearing, not Blind Lemon Jefferson. And Bird, he was just playing different lines over old changes. Thus it is no wonder that I failed so badly with pedal steel, having reach the Peter Principle of music.

Mr. Smith: if you are still reading, could you get in touch with me? I'm still trying to find some work of yours from the 80's, solo steel that caused me to fall in love with the sound. There is a missing tune you may be able to help me find, and the album it was on.

This has been fascinating stuff. I hear the swansong, for the present.
Charlie

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Jun 2005 6:04 am

Didn't bear repeating.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 01 June 2005 at 12:35 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 1 Jun 2005 12:50 pm

Hi Denny, good to hear from you too. I've been working out on the alto sax and transcribing 16 Maceo Parker and current smooth jazz hits, it's all minor and major blues scale / aeolian tonality based stuff. Horizontal aeolian scale over the entire progressions relative to the tonic key, way simple but catchy. Works on non pedal steel and sounds way smooth. It's wierd how hard old school jazz/bebop can be and this smooth jazz with the hip hop beat is so simple and catchy, all about phrasing.

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 1 Jun 2005 2:20 pm

Ah yes, Jesse. I sense some pleasant waters flowing in yer camp. GLAD to hear it.

You sure describe Carlos' (and a number of others') formula for a long time!

I'm just an old jam-band nut(case). Many years now of rather casual exposure to academia has come full circle and left the simple modal structure as my loose / simple road-map and armature for all the other years of fortunate / valuable mumbo-jumbo to flow upon with the least amount of a-do. I guess the "keep it simple" / "note & brain budgeting" / alter ego of academia is a path to the freedom of reasonably accomplished laziness! (Watt'd he just say?

)

aholA,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 01 June 2005 at 03:23 PM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 1 Jun 2005 3:25 pm

Charlie,

I can't tell what context and/or SGF posting (?) of the Sleepwalk bridge you're referring to. My brain is too often like a pea lost in a shell game! It would help if you reference the posting or expound upon the context you are referring to with the whole bridge progression in measures so my pea can grasp the space/time you're referring to. Example:

The chorus in simple terms is:
<pre>
4/4: F - - - / Fm - - - / C - F - / C - C7 - /
F - - - / Fm - - - / G - Bb - (A>Ab) / G - - - /
</pre>

Sleepwalk is indeed a good song to demonstrate and use scale / chord / position / voicing substitutions ...and connect those meanings to the scales'/chords' simple & congruent modal structure. For instance, the G#6 position subs for the Fm in the bridge because G#6 is also an Fm7 voicing. Sleepwalk is also a good example for brain exercise (for those so inclined) because it changes keys for the bridge ...giving us some simple song-familiar insight into the mechanics of I IV V key changes vs I IV V tone center movements within the same tonic key. So I am most interested in what you are referring to, to take a look at and discuss.

Thanks,
Aloha,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 17 October 2005 at 01:45 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 2 Jun 2005 5:09 am

Denny,

I see what you mean; searching back thru the posts on this topic, my brain is starting to feel like Swiss cheese....

Nonetheless, I think I have answered my own question, through the quest.
Terry Farmer, back on page 4, wrote the Sleepwalk chart this way:

Sleepwalk
Verse - C Am Fm G etc.....
Turnaround C F C G7
Chorus F Fm C F C
F Fm C Bb C G7

You corrected the last line:
F Fm G Bb G etc.

So, looking for the thread, I missed the cloth. The G makes the Bb work for me.

Thanks for taking the time to ease my mind.
The above shows how linear my mind is.

So what I find is that, over the years, in my head sometimes, and without the background in string theory, I've been making these chord substitutions on my own.
Thanks for the brain teasers, and I'll keep reading. Perhaps on steel, I can look at it differently. That's why I play, for the challenge.

Charlie
"The only thing I really share with George Shearing is he didn't learn to read music."

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 15 Oct 2005 10:48 pm

Bump

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 16 Oct 2005 12:12 am

This is a wonderful thread - rich in knowledge and insight. I didn't see it before, sure am glad it got bumped!

RA