C6th lap steel modal theory site

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 1 Jun 2003 4:45 pm

a Major triad above a Dom7 which isolates the Dom7's ,9 ,#11 , and 13. This approach is famous, it's so you can find those intervals real easy and use them in your line.

I'll try working with that some. I would tend to think of the major triad above as being part of Melodic Minor scale harmony, which has another 7th chord a whole-step above the dom.7#11 which occurs on the scale's 4th degree.

I always like to fit things into some framework when I can.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 13 June 2003 at 08:50 PM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 1 Jun 2003 10:33 pm

Jess, I now owe you 2 quarts of T-bird. You are correct that I misread your Bird examples. You stated Maj triad subs ... and my brain saw Parent scale step-quality triad subs. On the other hand, about the only difference in our perspectives is the 4 note which my course if full of cautions about. I agree with you wholeheartedly in our differences in your Bird example ... which could/would have lead to confusion without your correction.

We still haven't reconciled our differences over using some specific substitution modes within the parent mode steps. I don't think we will reconcile that because our approaches are so different. I don't think reconciling it is all that important because I think we're simply approaching the mode sliderule differently; You with rules that your ear surfs and me with templates that my ear surfs. I've spent all day working on my simplisitic approach and will start posting it in a minute or two.

ALOHA,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 01 June 2003 at 11:48 PM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 1 Jun 2003 10:54 pm

OK Jesse. IN THE BEST OF THE HIGHEST RESPECT AND FRIENDSHIP; And believe me my friend, I have the HIGHEST respect for EVERYTHING I've observed about you.

You can stick to roots and rules and it will work fine for you and anyone else who pursues them as tediously ... WHICH IS WONDERFUL AND COMMENDABLE AND FULLY CORRECT, albeit sometimes contradictory in different perspectives. And you can bet that I will eventually digest every great bit of info you've posted here. But for anyone else that might be interested in seeing that roots, rules, and complexity is not necessary in making a good showing, ... Then see my next message:

Aloha NUI Loa,
DT~

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 1 Jun 2003 10:55 pm

IT'S TIME TO GET TO SOME MEAT:

Now that we have a full discussion of modes ... from simple to very complex ... and enough information for folks to get the basics of what the mode / substitution template affords, ... we can get down a bit deeper into what it affords. I went looking for this system because when I heard some of the Steel Masters, ... particularly Tommy Morrel's The Timewarp Tophands' series, ... it was very apparant that their fluidity with scale and chord voicing in close-fret association was not coming from sporadic spots on the fretboard but was coming from some modal templates that afforded congruent voicing throughout the modal slide rule. Now we're going to see much more of how that works. The key to the system is it being a simple map, upon which complexity can be built to a person's desire although it's not required. So in this message I will continue to argue that rules in complexity do not rule out the simplicity that is optionally very effective, ... and that allot of the complexity is contradictory and complicates the other simple perspective that is much more rewarding for folks that haven't achieved mastery of complex modal / music theories.

The mode boxes template provides a map to know the neighborhood; Once a Player knows the neighborhood they can move away from the mode boxes with as much complexity and any number of rules they might desire; But I can guarantee you they will come back to the boxes in their playing often. A number of fine folks in this forum can just jump right to the abstract they know well. For the rest of us, having a very effective simpler model is most valuable and rewarding.

The ii,V,I (IImin, V, I) progression has been used as an example several times in posts here, as a jazz standard; And it has been presented quite a bit in that context that Dorian would not work and is shunned by working / intelligent / accomplished / etc Musicians. I beg to differ IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS MESSAGE and this message's message.

We can use IMaj7 as a choice of "I" quality in the ii,V,I example since IMaj7 in that context is a standard too. And I use it in my example because it lends to the demonstration that Dorian will indeed work as a basis scale ... as would any other scale in the FMaj7 scale mode sequence ... which becomes important later when we find that different voicings of each mode and different lick positions are available in different substitution boxes that will still afford us the Parent Maj7 and it's derivitive scales.

I'm going to add a VI Aeolean to the ii,V,I so we will have a wider range of tones and chord / lick voicing. We can use F6 chord as a good substitute chord for D Aeolean CHORD. Another Aeolean SCALE pattern at that substitution point is shown at the end of this message.

Simple chord change reference for this message:
<pre>
ii V7 IMaj7 (iv) ii V7 IMaj7
4/4[: 1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4 :]
</pre>

BEFORE I GET TO THE MEAT FURTHER BELOW:

Now because I am not hung up on root and rules being commanding and don't have to; In the ii,V,I,(vi) example, a Dorian setting a leading armature scale through the tone movements is so blatant to the ear's management of it, that I simply cannot accept that Dorian is terribly improper for Ionian tonic theme as a point of reference (although it can be improper in other circumstances / applications / etc ... and in some crowds that might say "aw man, yer playing hick jazz")(Thank you kindly!).

A person can prove the validity of Dorian as an armature for Ionian tonic in the context of this message (which is a pretty broad context as you will see later in this message), ...by playing G Dorian scale up and down in quarter notes (4/4) through a ii,V,I,vi (IImin, V, I, VImin) change in the key of F (see the reference "chart" shown above). (I suggest using the new scale shown at the bottom of this message because it affords full range). Don't stop the first time G sounds off over F Ionian; Keep at it until the ear catches onto what's going on with the tone shifts that occur around that G Dorian scale (FMAJ7!) through the changes. In almost every-other measure the tone relationship will change even though the Dorian scale is being used. After awhile you will notice that you can simply shift direction (up/down scale), sometimes after only a couple or few notes, when you hear a tone that says to change (yea I know, you just changed modes ... BUT YOU HAVEN'T CHANGED THE SCALE and sense of what's happening). But that is just a simple demonstration exercise ... and not anymore important; The meat of fuller utility is coming.

THE DORIAN SCALE ALONE IS NOT WHAT THE MEAT OF THIS MESSAGE IS ABOUT ... but used for the foregoing example exercise that is setting up for the rest of this message. I'm also using Dorian to argue against some opinions that it is improper in the ii,V,I change relative to "I"; And that statement is contrary to a very simple perspective to modes that doesn't REQUIRE all the math and rules. I'm gonna show here that you can play just about ANYTHING in a box of relative modes and it will work ... INCLUDING THE DORIAN SCALE and all around it; albeit much better with some ear applied; ... and the boxes afford an extraordinary tool for the ear as this message will show.

A person should let go of an iron grip on roots and rules long enough to investigate / realize that there is another rather effective and DIFFERENT APPROACH OF SIMPLICITY with quite good results in doing so ... ESPECIALLY on the 6th tuned Steel ... because it is laid out right there in front of us regardless of roots in a box's relative modes. A half-decent ear will be able to use all the notes of relative-modes in a box THAT EXIST IN THE SAME BOX ANYWAY and utilize them without all the "rules". A decent ear WILL hear roots and tone centers and move with them; And the more you do it, the better it will get. And I guarantee you that I have used the same concept on Spanish Guitar for about 30 years with reputable success.

I repeat Jeff's accurate and pointed statement:

People that take the approach, for example, of favoring a particular scale (major, dorian, lydian, etc.) to use as the parent scale for most everything they play, eventually get to where they can see all the relevant chord shapes for that key in the parent scale; that way they can find the needed gravity notes.

TO THE MEAT:

Plug a ii,V,IMaj7,vi change, in the key of F, into your BandinaBox or QY or Buddy or brain ... AND SIMPLY SURF THE C6/7/9/11 BOX AND LET YOUR EAR DO THE PLAYING. PLAY SECTIONS OF THE CHANGE'S CHORDS IN THE BOX FIRST to get a sense of what's happening, then surf away experimenting with all combinations of notes and techniques in that box. FORGET ABOUT ROOTS AND RULES. You will find so much stuff there ... HARMONIES STACKED LIKE MAGIC for the entire ii,V,I,vi change ... ANY COMBINATION OF NOTES WILL WORK for familiarization; Which is A NEW CONCEPTUAL APPROACH to most Players that I think will be as revealing to most of you as the mode / substitution / box picture is and was to me.

The reason all of this works is because every mode of FMaj7 Ionian IS THE SAME NOTES IN THE SAME BOX WITH NOTES STACKED LIKE MAGIC through all the changes for the most part. Let go of root and rules computation long enough to check it out, and just play that box; Then hook it up with related stuff up and down the neck, then blast off anywhere you desire with whatever works for you.

<pre>
-------------------------------------------------
</pre>

Chart for Aeolean SCALE in a Dorian box:
(Which is of course also the notes for I Ionian and ii Dorian and iii Phrygian, etc etc etc).
D Aeolean (ii) (and any/all other mode scales derived from FMaj7) is the example below for the chord changes in the above message.

<pre>
[Dmin7]
]-------5--4------------------------------------5--
]-------------5---------------------------------5--
]----------------7--5---------------------------5--
]-------5--4-----------5--3-----0---------------5--
]-------------5--------5--3--5--0--1------------5--
]----------------7--5--------5-----0------------5--
</pre>

The CHORD here on the 5th fret will substitute voicings for "I" (F) Maj CHORD, and "VI" (D) Aeolean CHORD quite well. If you look around in that G6 box you will find a number of notes and harmonies that are useable in the F ii,V,I,(vii) example of this message. This scale and harmonies also afford some different voicings than the C6 Mixolydian / FMaj7 Ionian / Gmin7 Dorian / Dmin7b6 Aeolean / etc BOX (singular) that we are otherwise using as our congruent mode box. Remember that it's all relative and will work in any other key template as well.

ALOHA,
DT~

<pre>
cr2003wdt
</pre>[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 02 June 2003 at 01:02 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 Jun 2003 1:46 am

Rules are a great road map for finding things..
but rules are also ment to be broken.. or at least bent.
I love 4ths all over the places, it just depends on how FAST you play through it as a passing note..

Bird and Train broke "accepted" rules all the time to find new rules and ways to expand the music. Now those, once radical, innovations are accepted.

But are they the only ones left to find?

Just like for the 1st person who dared to play the tri-tone in public.. and was fired or burned at the stake for it. Rules have a time and a place. But times change.

Use the rules to expand you understanding and vision...
but don't let them get in the way of your vision...
as wide or as narrowly focused as you wish it to be.

Merciles professors, for all this great info in Threadzilla!
Viva le sus4 in inapropriate places.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 2 Jun 2003 5:03 am

Once a Player knows the neighborhood they can move away from the mode boxes with as much complexity and any number of rules they might desire; But I can guarantee you they will come back to the boxes in their playing often

Ain't that the truth !!

Although I'm a HUGE advocate of the ... "vertical / fluid / don't stop the flow / slant-mania" approach to steel guitar and hate to "cut off" a nice run to jump to a different string combination for the correct harmony ....

I do find myself "falling into" the Whole Step "Ionian" Modal Box (I've called it the "IV / V box" for years) ... anytime I want some safe, fast, single string stuff done ...

In fact ... I just went to my slant thread and put the location of this all important group of notes on the various slant charts ... in bold print

C6 Slant Charts

* I use the C6/A7 tuning ... so the String 6 notes are "outside" of the box.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 02 June 2003 at 09:17 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 2 Jun 2003 8:17 am

Well Denny, I think I'm just too far over your head. I played your example? Tommy M. plays pretty good jazz/country guitar as well as steel I understand and he and all the boys in his band look at theory the same way as I do. You ever heard the saying "you gotta learn the rules before you can break em"? Learning theory turns into finger pattern memory after awhile and allows you to play without having to think about it too much. Great players end up breaking the rules all the time in this way and come up with some nice stuff jamming.

I've decided it is probably best to start a new thread on "well known approaches" that can be applied to steel. Applying theory to your Modal template here, as used on other instruments, is just clouding up the simple explanation of how to see the Template as a home base for jumping off into the great wide open. **I realize you were hinting at this awhile back, and now I agree with you 100% on that. I must say, all this thinking and trying to prove this and that has been a real good refresher about the benefits of knowing theory, I see what I have to figure out on steel a lot better. This thread has lit a fire under my ass now foresure! Thanks for the workout.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 02 June 2003 at 09:30 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 Jun 2003 10:22 am

Jesse, I suspect this has left a trail of flaming butts around the world!

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 2 Jun 2003 11:57 am

mine's roastin'

------------------
Steel what?

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 2 Jun 2003 1:19 pm

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 02 June 2003 at 02:22 PM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 2 Jun 2003 1:28 pm

well what's it gonna be ?
Noxema or BBQ sauce ?

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 2 Jun 2003 2:43 pm

we can get down a bit deeper

[This message was edited by HowardR on 02 June 2003 at 03:44 PM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 2 Jun 2003 3:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
a Major triad above a Dom7 which isolates the Dom7's ,9 ,#11 , and 13. This approach is famous, it's so you can find those intervals real easy and use them in your line.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Alright.. very true.
Now, another interesting thing happens if the chord you are playing this on is about to progress around the circle of fifths:
If you use this method, it's like superimposing a II triad over the existing chord, resulting in a 7#11 sound.... Now, for the next chord, if you simply lower that idea a half-tone, then it's like playing a b6 triad over the following chord, which produces an Altered feeling.
Oscar Peterson delights in doing this at warp speed around the circle of fifths. (Most commonly for II-V progressions).
-John

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 2 Jun 2003 8:02 pm

Howard
Why use a bungee cord....wave a TOWEL.......

ROTFLMAO.

Anyone take requests?? play Sweet Leilani.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 2 Jun 2003 9:18 pm

The meat of fuller utility is coming.

Hey Denny- care if I borrow that one?

Now I've got a good opener, I just need somewhere to go from there.

Seriously, I appreciate your taking the time to prepare the above example and explanation. Reading an extended bit by you gives a nice insight into your personality.

I use the dorian (along with assorted blues stuff and passing tones)as a base scale over ii-V7's all the time. I've never really tried to carry it over into the IM7 resolution, until messing with it on guitar a little after reading your post. Like you say, all the major scale modes are the same notes anyway. Something I myself usually do in that situation, if I'm going with what has been called "minor conversion," would be to play II minor-based stuff (like dorian) over the ii-V, and then play minory stuff based a step and a half below the IM chord's root. I probably like a little shift in perspective for the IM.

If I understand one of the basic points of your example correctly, it really brings to mind a video I have by Allan Holdsworth, one of my all-time fave guitarists. Like you, he de-emphasizes the division of a particular template (great explanatory term, BTW) into this or that modal segment. Instead, like you I believe, he encourages free exploration over the whole pattern. He has a fairly fresh way of viewing this stuff, similar enough to where your thinking takes me, that I'll briefly describe it; he's talking about standard guitar, but I see no reason why this won't cast an interesting light here as well:

Holdsworth has ten favorite "scales" that he mostly uses, but his conception of these scales is really cool. What we look at as being the ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, and locrian modes, he treats as a single scale. We already have dealt with the fact that these are all the same notes anyway. In Holdsworth's mind, he sees this shape not as several individual positions of different modes, but as one comprehensive pattern that includes every note on the guitar, from low to high, that can be part of that pattern.

Now, I've got to think that he's put some time into studying positional scales, but that's something he de-emphasizes as a way of thinking to get locked into. He encourages free exploration and fingering over the whole thing, very reminiscent of your explanation above. Within this single pattern then, he sees relevant chord scales and tones for whatever key he's in.

In addition to that parent scale, he has others, two of which would correspond to what we know as the Melodic Minor modal system and the Harmonic Minor. Again, he could care less about naming the scale differently when it starts and ends on different notes; but he does say it's important to know what the diference in sound is when one does this.

This guy plays so fast and fluid, that it really makes you wonder about the benefits of unified approaches such as this, where someone ends up thinking very little.

He only mentions it in passing, but there is one thing he does that suggests a suborientation within these comprehensive templates he sees: He tends to relate most things to minor-type scales. I'm sure dorian would be one of these. Here he does what many other jazz guitarists do, what I do a fair amount, and what you (Denny) apparently like from time to time as well.

John Steele, thanks for expanding on the triadic idea. I thought of you back aways when we were talking about fourths -- I remember a couple of years ago when you posted that cool piano voicing that had both a third and a fourth (or was it an 11th?)

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 02 June 2003 at 10:28 PM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 3 Jun 2003 4:03 am

Whoa Jeff.... some mighty good things in that post. Yep, those ideas are right down my alley; BUT, I simply don't have the mental ability to have maps that expansive; I have to work off of smaller ones and move them around in context ... using them for good harmonic grounding ... moving away from them when it seems right (which is most of the time) and moving or falling back to them as needed; It helps keep my ear oriented during the times that such methodolgy is needed.

I've said several times that these mode box thangs aren't the music ... nor are they fat on technique; They're just a map that shows ALLOT of what's going on and where to go for woodshedding and grounding. They also afford a VERY good picture of the simplicity of mode templates, and why substitution works ...for folks that might benefit from that picture. God knows modal theory can sure be discouraging in quantity and quality.

My thrust right now is to just get people to surf the mode boxes to realize just how much there is in them. THAT develops the same ear concepts you were mentioning. The mode boxes are one of the very best and easiest and simplest techniques I have ever encountered for woodshedding toward getting that bigger horizontal map ... or in my case, several smaller ones compared to your excellent examples.

THANKS AGAIN. Some day I'm going to somehow get the full time to come and really study the tremendous stuff that folks are posting here. If I could ever figure out how to get my printer to print a webpage bigger than a postcard, I'd have this stuff in a stack on the john where I would have time!

ALOHA,
DT~

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 3 Jun 2003 4:05 am

Absolutely amazing Jess,

My brain has been absolutely roasted the last few days trying to figure out direction that will help allot of folks here without alientating newer pickers that might benefit the most. My wife says I have a boil on my butt; I think it's a brain tumor.

On the other hand there has been so much incredibly good stuff pour forth from these discussions that it would be sinful to try to discourage ANYones' offerings due to complexity. Shootz ....this is one of if not the best "labs" I have ever attended both as a student and teacher and Picker. I can remember only one Classical Theory class course I think I might have gotten as much benefit from; And I haven't even had the chance to apply reading / thinking depth to all of it yet!

So where do we go from here in that matrix? My dizzy scorched brain woke up this morning obviously having fretted over this stuff (for direction) in my sleep (for days); And had a mung idea of what to suggest. So as I am getting some caffeine and nicotine into my blood for an IQ bump back up to 80 or so ... I surfed in to see how many more sandbags I might need for the bunker; And lo and behold I see yer last post beating me to the punch of the jist I had in mind! No kidding, almost verbatum.

I'm not so sure that a separate discussion thread is the answer, and don't think so, although that occured to me. Where would one draw a line? When someone asks "why is such-and-such so, it would take answers similar to the complexities posted here ... and certainly to explain it thoroughly. Maybe a better idea is for when we are going to post theory-related information, ...we rate it in music education level 1 thru 5. That way folks at those different levels can find / get what they're looking for and not be discouraged in the process.

Or heck, maybe it ain't no big deal.

I'm wide open for suggestions ... and need them so I don't worry.

ALOHA,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 03 June 2003 at 05:07 AM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 3 Jun 2003 4:08 am

I'm changing from Dial-Up to Cable Modem tomorrow. God knows how long that affair might be getting back online. I wanted to leave something simple and meaningful and a bit unusual. If I've made any mistakes in a busy day; ....well... BALIFF.....
<pre>
=======================================================

A Simple but Cosmic All-Modes Exercise.

(Level 2, of 5 being highest. Requires being able to hold
and not drop the bar, and read rythm count in 4/4 - 8/8.)
</pre>

OK; This exercise if for Lost Galxie Airmen and Aliens at the wheel. Folks rooted solid in Patsy Cline might not be able to hear much less appreciate it (but don't let it discourage you or hate me if you can't appreciate this exercise; There will likely be plenty of stuff in the styles you like as this forum moves along). This is an exercise using a simple Avante Garde Funk rythm. I tried to find something rather simple that would lend itself to ears that would likely catch all the modes in context played over a simple but motivating Mixolydian theme.

Playing some of the modes right off of the root over the Mixolydian rythm breaks some rules; But at the same time, in the right context such as this exercises simplicity, it shows that the rules are not always commanding.

EASILY copping Phrygian and Lydian sounds takes a special feeling and people atuned to it (and are the least important modes to people that don't particularly care for unusual sounds and would rather stick to simple songs / sounds); And Aeolean over Mixolydian REALLY takes that special feeling and people who can appreciate it. I think this is that feeling; where folks that would like to explore unusual sounds and contexts of modes, can cruise with this rythm just a little bit,

...then experiment with any combination of notes in the box a little bit, coming back to play the rythm to keep the feel going. It's important to some teaching / learning technique to play the rythm about as much as the box surfing, even if you're playing along to a BiaB or sequencer.

...and then start playing each mode's 1-8 note proper scale sequence in the box (8th notes work good), from root to root, (up or down scale doesn't matter) ...which establishes each mode, ...then go back to the rythm. When you have the time, try going up the neck with the scale a ways and fall back into the box and back to rythm.

After playing any mode scale passage up the neck to hear that mode with your ear, go right back to the box, experiment some and pick up the rythm again. I have found that when I am about to return to the rythm in this example exercise, it works well to play mostly the open strings in the box for a few notes and then slide up into the 2nd fret to end the passage at picking up the rythm ... working down to the lower strings has a nice sound in any mode. Try to notice how a passage's ending notes can accentuate what was heard in the passage. BE SURE TO explore the different string combo harmonies on each fret in the box. Again, the box itself has tons of note combinations and harmonies to explore, so don't get stuck on that "mostly open notes" mention. ANYTHING works in the box ... some better than others, and you will find your own new stuff with just a little time and patience.

If you're new to or not real familiar with hearing modes and unfamiliar sounds they create, just hang in there and play the rythm allot and then try some short things in the box with any notes in the box, and return to the rythm.

After awhile you'll begin to notice that it matters what note you start with and end with for each modes sound ... BUT IT'S NOT CRITICAL for this exercise; And you'll notice that if you're listening, ..then whatever mode you established with it's scale context, can be supported with how and what note(s) you end the passage (start and end on the same note an octave apart until the idea starts to sink in). A GREAT THING ABOUT THE BOXES IS THAT YOU CAN'T HIT A WRONG NOTE in that box's mode stacking context; You can only hit better or lesser notes ... and learning to hear / find the better notes doesn't take an extraordinary amount of effort to develop; Just woodshed.

The level of the other Musicians and music environment you ALREADY play in rather automatically establishes what level of theory you will find in the boxes and apply to them.

I think you'll begin to hear how modes in melody, vamping and rythm work together. After awhile you'll even be able to hear ideas in your head specific to learning / playing the boxes, and will notice theme tones in each mode, and be able to play the box congruent with the stuff and tones you hear. There's no rush. When you start to find things in the styles of music you like, the boxes will work for you commensurate with the amount of time you have to experiment with them. You might not like this example exercise at all; That's OK; Stick with the styles you like.

-------------------------------

THE EXCERCISE:

This is not a song; It's an exercise in getting to know different mode sounds ... and to demonstrate the cornucopia of stuff that is in the boxes in different contexts (composition and feeling), ...and how easy it is to learn what modes are in their simple forms.

The whole nine yards here is to demonstrate once again how the boxes lend themselves to ANY notes therein being harmonic to each mode, and each mode having it's own character that will change the feel of the theme mode (D Mixolydian in this example) ... and just a little bit of experimenting will find all sorts of stuff. The more you experiment ... hopefully with all the mode boxes with what ever songs or styles or experimenting you like to hear ... the more you will find.

Once you get a good grip of what's going on below, ...then you can even twist yerself up a Mai-Tai or sody-pop ... put on yer panty hose and WWI pilots cap / goggles ... and zin on out.

<pre>
[Mode root in every box] [Roots of the modes in this box]
Aol---X---Loc E---X---F# E Aolean F# Locrian
Lyd---X---Mix C---X---D C Lydian D Mixolydian
Dor---X---Phr A---X---B A Dorian B Phrygian
Ion---X---(Dor) G---X---A G Ionian (A)(duplicated in Dorian)
Aol---X---Loc E---X---F# E Aolean F# Locrian
Lyd---X---Mix C---X---D C Lydian D Lydian

Martian Cowboy Avante Garde Mode Funk
D6/7 box Mixolydian RYTHM:
Nice feel at 119bps 4/4
(This rythm might not come easy. It's not difficult, just keep at it
for a bit and you will get it. Build / practice it, a quarter note at
a time.)

]----------------------------------
]----2-0---2---0-----2-0---2---0-2-
]----2-0---2---0-----2-0---2---0-2-
]----2-0---2---0-----2-0---2---0-2-
]----2-0---2---0-----2-0---2---0-2-
]--0-----0---0-----0-----0---0-----

4/4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
8/8 * * * * * * * . * * * * * * * *
</pre>

Now modify this exercise to your own taste of style and rythm.

<pre>
cr2003wdt
</pre>[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 15 June 2003 at 10:37 PM.]

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 3 Jun 2003 5:20 am

Threadzilla squared! Continued good info.

The way Jeff explains Holdsworth's approach is exactly the way I've assimilated this material. The numerical charts that Jesse, Rick and Denny and others have worked so hard to provide don't really work for my learning style.

I needed to make a visual map of the fretboard with dots for each note position of the scales (but avoiding the duplicate notes in Denny's charts). This is similar to the way Jerry Byrd & Buddy emmons have mapped out scales in their instruction materials. What you wind up with is a full map of the neck showing you all the places you can play notes that will fit a given progresion. I don't think about the modes names at all - just about sliding this full-neck template back and forth and listening to the sounds they produce. I let my ear guide me to the chromatic notes & passing tones that make these positions live as music. This is just one person's approach - I'm more visual, right-brain oriented than left brain in my learning style.[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 03 June 2003 at 07:36 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 3 Jun 2003 6:47 am

John, the Bird approach with the major triad up a whole step from a Dom7 is basically a "Lydian Dom7 scale" 4th mode of Melodic minor. Your approach with a major triad up a 1/2 step from a Dom7 is the 5th mode of Harmonic minor and outlines the ( b9, 11, #5), some nice outside sounds.

Jeff, Allan Holdsworth lives out here and I ran into him in downtown San Diego one night (Gaslamp), where he likes to buy handrolled cigars. He is pretty tall and I got to talk about his I.O.U album from way back, Nice guy. I think you would like studying Miles Davis's Modal approaches. Your minor sound a minor third below your Imaj in a ii-V will give you a Major6/9 chord if you use a minor Pentatonic. Steely Dan loved the Major6/9 sound in their songs.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Jun 2003 7:24 am

Andy, your way at looking at this is similar to mine. I drew up some chord degree charts for the C6 D-10 neck, over Dennys modes format.
And also did it for various pedel and lever combinations. Based on C root, not alternates yet.
This has been very helpful for me. (posted link earlier)

When I met the very nice Alan Holdsworth in NYC a few years back the most impressive thing for me wasn't his height.. which is impressive, but that I felt his hands would swallow mine to the elbow when we shook hands.

He can get some chord / note spacings that most people can't and I think that has also allowed him to look beyond many other players grasp of the neck.. because he HAS a bigger grasp on the neck.
Add to that when he plays his eyes are farther from the neck a bit and see's it as a less compressed whole.

I still think "Night and Day" would be a very good tune to have worked up, for it's particualr transitions relating to this threads ideas. As well as it being well known to many people.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 June 2003 at 08:25 AM.]

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 3 Jun 2003 7:29 am

Allan actually used to play pedal steel guitar. In fact he played on an Esther Phillips lp for CTI. His chordal sound has always reflected that.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 3 Jun 2003 8:12 am

David, talkin' about big hands ....

Sergie Rachmaninoff was believed to have had Marfan Syndrome ... a genetic disorder whose distinctive characteristics include unusually long arms, fingers, and toes.

Extremely mobile joints are another common characteristic.

I had a genetics professor who said that there are pieces he wrote and played on piano that basically cannot be played by anyone "normal" because they called for extreme "reach and flexability" ...

Sorry ... back to the topic

As Andy alluded to .... isn't it all about PATTERNS ... modal boxes, scales, written music, tab, etc ...

Regardless on how they got "into your head" to begin with ... don't we all rely on a set of patterns to get us through the "Heat of the Moment" ?

There just ain't enough time to think about what you are doing in "Real Time" ... like swinging a golf club or baseball bat ....

Even the hands of a "sight reading" musican playing an elaborate piece go to the proper position/pattern without actually THINKING about it.

It's just a memorized set of movements that your CNS executes .... independent from "Conscious Thought".

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 03 June 2003 at 10:01 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 3 Jun 2003 8:27 am

O.K. since we have the green light to talk about approaches, I would like to share with you guy's 2 of the most powerful yet simply poly-tonal substitutions I know. These approaches were and are still used a lot in Jazz and Uptown style Blues.

*Since Dom7 chords are used a lot in jazz and blues, they will serve as the chord of the moment that the "rest of the band" is playing e.g. C7.

*(Approach #1)* You can minorize a Dom7 by superimposing a minor chord built off of the Dom7 chord's 5th note. e.g. C7 = G minor
Adding extensions to the substitute minor e.g. mi6th, mi7th,mi9th etc. introduces notes which further extend (or alter) the original chord. All of these substitute minor chords can be used as comping chords over the Dom7. (looks like the ii-V doesn't it? Cause it is!).

*Superimposing a minor chord over a major one creates new possibilities for single-line soloing. All of the scales and arpeggios normally used for minor chord improvising can be used over a minorized dominant. The most popular choices are:

1. Minor pentatonic
2. Dorian
3. Melodic minor
4. Minor 7th arpeggios with extensions (9th, 11th, 13th etc).

*Another great way to use the "blues scale trick/pg 6, 30 May 2003 @ 5:56 pm) is to use the 5th note of your Dom7 .e.g. E dom7 = B minor7 dorian = B blues scale only going up or down the 2nd string (11th fret)/inverted 4th voicing up and down the neck, against E dom7 (4th fret/mixolydian) This sounds O.K. on C6 non pedal steel.

**Rockabilly E dom7 = C# minor blues scale played on the 2nd string/1st fret, use the inverted 4th voicing on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string (H to L = C#, Bb, Ab). Use frets 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13 for the notes found in C# min blues scale/inverted 4th voicing. This one sounds best to me for Swinging Hawaiian too. I let my ear lead me to this one. I'm not sure why this one works so good, but it might be that the inverted 4th voicing is related to C# phyrgian ( shares same parent scale as E Dom7) or it might be the related minor to E major which would turn it into C# Aeolean? Mostly I look at it as "2nd string E major blues scale/inverted 4th voicing trick over E Dom7 at the 4th fret".

**You can also use this same trick and switch from E major blues scale to E minor blues scale all on the 2nd string over E Dom7/4th fret (E minor blues scale/inverted 4th voicing trick, sounds O.K. over the 4 chord A7). E minor blues scale trick works good over the 4 chord because the 5th of the A7 chord is E, ergo: E min7/dorian etc substitution over a A Dom7. **But on the 5 chord B7, you can play the E minor blues scale/inverted 4th voicing, at the 4th fret 2nd string, play frets 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16. Hear that? Yea, there's some good Rockin tonight!

**You can use this blues scale trick approach for any chord voicing, just experiment with it on guitar and steel and you will see what I mean. Sounds great on funk chords!

*(Approach #2)* THE TONE BELOW PRINCIPLE. Another way of making the dominant 7th chord sound jazzy is to substitute a major chord (maj7th, 6th, major 9th, etc) and scale, a whole step below the original Dom7. e.g. C7 = Bbmaj7. This works because all of the notes in the superimposed major chord (in this instance Bbmaj7) are the extensions of the original Dom7 chord (C7th). So you can play a Major scale a whole step below the Dom7 that the "band is playing" and get the following extensions found in the Dom7:

<pre>
Bb major = C Dom7
scale = scale
1 = b7
2 = R
3 = 9th
4 = #9th
5 = 4th (don't hang on the sus sound)
6 = 5th
7 = 13th

</pre>

*This is a very popular way at looking at the Dom7 chord and getting outside with it's sound. I think these approaches work really well on the C6 non pedal steel and are easy to apply to the C6 neck.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 06 June 2003 at 05:01 PM.]

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 3 Jun 2003 8:36 am

just to inject one other improvisational approach into this very interesting and wide ranging thread. i learned to play by ear and then learned theory after i had been playing for about ten years. so even though i understand the mathematics that have been flying by for 7 pages now, i still never give the slightest thought to them while playing. i learn the melody of the song and base most of my improv around that and actually try to avoid ever thinking about a scale or pattern but let my ear guide me to pleasing sounds. of course, i know where all the notes are on my neck and could go back and analyze the stuff i play after i play it in terms of modal theory, but my ultimate questions in reviewing my playing are "did it sound good" and "did i play with conviction and mean every note i played?". the most boring music IMHO occurs when you play the math and don't play the music. please continue now with this educational discussion but don't forget to play the tune.