C6th lap steel modal theory site

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 May 2003 5:45 am

Jesse great idea, maybe somthing off a Murph cd since you mention him.

As long as the song as 2 sets of good A & B changes that can show a few different paths throught it, that would be great.

Put in the A changes biab(verse) work on them, then put in the B changes biab(Chorus) work on them,
and then combined as the whole song.

And also a bit of how the modes relate to the melody, or famous solos on it, would be good too.

Getting the most modal theory in the smallest package.

Terry Farmer · Post by **Terry Farmer** » 26 May 2003 6:18 am

Now you're talking. I was going to suggest "Sleepwalk" (in C). Denny already gives us a teaser for the chorus on his website for the Fm movement. I like your idea for starting simple and getting jazzier however, Jesse. How about "Steel Guitar Rag" (in E) for the song. We have to have some rules.

1. Steel Guitar - C6 tuning - low to high C,E,G,A,C,E. 8-string guys (me) can figure out the other strings on their own. (good practice)

2. We all have to agree on the basic simple chord progression before we proceed to on to the melody. I'll start it off. Please feel free to correct. I think I'll do both songs.

Sleepwalk
Verse - C Am Fm G etc.....
Turnaround C F C G7
Chorus F Fm C F C
F Fm C Bb C G7

Steel Guitar Rag
Verse - E E E B7 E
E A7 E E B7 E
Chorus A E F#7 B7
A E F#7 B7 E
Alright, let's play nice and make this a learning experience for all levels of players.

Terry Farmer · Post by **Terry Farmer** » 26 May 2003 6:22 am

Amazing grace would be excellent.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 26 May 2003 8:28 am

I nominate Night & Day. C & Eb tonalities with some chromatic stuff too.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 26 May 2003 9:02 am

O.K. I see two directions here. I remember one of the more experienced steel players around here talking about the Bob Wills band. He said the band would throw in all kinds of Jazzy stuff during a solo (which would mean they were injecting jazz changes so they could solo with jazz approaches) but they would settle back down and go back to the simple stuff for the singing etc. That gets my vote.

Let's look at the changes for "Amazing Grace". Those are gospel changes aren't they? The whole songs stays in the key of F major. I would stay very simply for a gospel song. If you get to far out there, it doesn't sound like gospel anymore. Sleep walk kinda does the same thing but does have some chords that change keys while the solo might not, just for the rock and roll tension that is created. We could still take these songs apart down the road to see what makes them tick. Sometimes seeing why something doesn't work a certain way is also very illuminating as well.

For jazz changes you want to look for a lot of different "key centers" that are changing as you travel through the song from start to finish. That's right, jazz changes keys a lot in one song. That's where we get the ii-V-I, I-vi-ii-V, iii-vi-ii-V etc. little chord changes. It's easy to navigate these little chord progressions and they have become standards in song writing. The keys of these little chord change groups can have different keys and go form one key center to another to make up a jazzy sounding progression. These are the things that modes work really great over.

So we decide on a Western Swing song that we could gig with (kinda Showcase type tune) and we rewrite the blowing section so we can stretch out on the solo's using modern jazz approaches and then go back to a simpler swinging hick sound for the theme and singing.

I vote for "Pan Handle Rag" as a classic instrumental tune that we rewrite for the blowing section for a Swinging Hick Jazz sound.[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 26 May 2003 at 10:05 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 May 2003 9:46 am

I like Steel guitar Rag and Amazing Grace fine. Of these two Amazing Grace leads for me.

But Night And Day does have much more interesting changes from the theory point of view. Including the change of tonality.

Possibly much modal info can be gleened from this song. But I won't argue the point.

Pan Handle Rag unfortunately doesn't come to mind/ear right now.
But I will accept Jesse's logic for it.
Always good to learn a new tune

If professors Jesse, Rick and Denny all agree on a song I won't disagree.
Oh yeah, our founding father Andy V. gets a vote there too.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 May 2003 at 11:34 AM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 26 May 2003 9:53 am

Terry Farmer · Post by **Terry Farmer** » 26 May 2003 10:11 am

Any song is fine. I'd like to hear from Denny. He could probably choose the right song to showcase his charts and theories. Very funny Howard. I've felt that way several times during this thread!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 May 2003 10:28 am

Well Howard ar e your SURE you're a NewYawka???
You look imported to me...

After a week in an elevator with Parker Posey and Barneys on strike.
When the going gets tough, the tough go shopping,
and then hang themselves in a good sweater.

I was jamming the BiaB version of BN Night and Day and it is very cool on C6. I increase my vote for that.. and suggest we don't let Howard out much at night.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 May 2003 at 11:33 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 26 May 2003 10:35 am

Well, to be honest with ya'll, I'm learning non pedal steel to play classic non pedal steel songs mostly in the western swing/country thang. I done burned myself out on Jazz awhile ago and find I can't hardly stand sitting through even two sets of it anymore. It's pretty sunny out here all the time and that may have something to do with it. I have the guitar and sax for regular jazz and I'm not too keen on trying to play jazz standards on non pedal. Why you guys would want to do "Amazing Grace" after what I just shared with you up above is beyond me? You learn the same theory streching out on Western Swing as you do on a tired old jazz standard, the difference is no ones dancing on a lot of jazz standards. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 26 May 2003 at 11:39 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 May 2003 10:50 am

Jesse, I agree Amazing Grace is a bit simplistic for this discusion, but a nice tune.
Night and Day is well over-played,
but it has interesting logic for modes and sits very well on C6. That is why I leaned toward it. I love western swing too.

Ok I just found Gene Jone's CD and it has Pan Handle Rag. I like the tune, and Genes version, but chord wise it's also
a bit simplistic for this discusion.

But, Midnight In Old Amarilo would be cool.
Still a bu asic set of changes, but lots of turn arounds.

For me the point is something that really works the modal theory and will show us MORE,
whether we like ths song and want to play it in the long run.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 May 2003 at 12:18 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 26 May 2003 11:28 am

I'm dropping out of this, I get too frustrated. The idea here David, was to reharmonize the solo sections on a classic western swing tune for streching out with Jazz changes/approaches on the solos and then going back to the more simple approaches for the head/vocals. This is how the great non pedal steel players were doing it. Good luck...

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 May 2003 12:06 pm

Jesse! Easy big feller. I wasn't trying to get you frustrated. If you want to do a particular to tune I ain't stopping you. Not a bit.

Just pointing out my reasoning for one tune vs. another. If the "powers that be" start another tune I will follow along avidly.
"If you build it they will come."[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 May 2003 at 01:08 PM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 26 May 2003 12:16 pm

Yes, please post a tune with an analyses of what has been discussed at great length on this thread.

I may not comprehend all of this right now, but this is invaluable and many (at least myself) will use this knowledge at some point in the future.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 26 May 2003 12:28 pm

has anyone been over to see Howard ?
Bickerson and Disputicus ! .....and you too Rick !
you've gone too far !
This is an Xcellent thread but should NOW have a Warning Indicator upon entrance signaling it's content.
thus keeping fragile Musicians from comitting the irremediable

did we really lose Howard ?
if so i hold you guys responsable !
Musik Police gonna close Threadzilla toot sweet !
btw: that Joaquin Murphey tune would be just dandy.
i made it this far cause i did'nt read everything youse guys put down.
i smelled a fish right from the git
and i'm from New Yawk too !
Xcellent thread never the less Guys

------------------
Steel what?

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 26 May 2003 1:33 pm

Yes Crowbear, I'm still here, just "hanging" around.

and now back to our regularly scheduled program.....

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 26 May 2003 2:55 pm

You may think that this is to much to think about when your playing a solo and your right. All the greats including "Rick Aiello", work this stuff out in their bedrooms or kitchens and piece different approaches together into singing lines that they can play over chords that the band are given solo chord charts for later down the road. The solo sounds improvised to someone who never heard you play it before, if you come up with different versions here and there, you'll get it going on. Coltrane to Hendrix worked stuff out this way. This is how you develop pet licks that are all yours, that you can use on the fly along with the ones you stole from the greats who inspire you. By the way, my girlfriend won't even take lessons from me anymore!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 26 May 2003 7:47 pm

By the way, my girlfriend won't even take lessons from me anymore!

My girlfriend wanted to learn surf guitar so I bought her a Fender JazzMaster, that was a long couple of months.....

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 May 2003 1:39 pm

Looks like the professors are taking a breather.. they HAVE earned it!

Somebody has got to have a life out there somewhere.

I see no reason why more than one tune could not be worked on especially if they are quite different.

Also anyone brave enough to TAB some of these modes... double dare ya!
Well I'll keep hangin' around. And eventually untie Howard.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 27 May 2003 3:46 pm

I'm working on "Steel Guitar Rag". I play it in open E/D bottle neck and on C6 steel tuning in the same key as the recording. I figure if your gonna take a song and work it, this is a good one, as Terry suggested. The sections are in 16 measure progressions, country style. I noticed that Leon's solo stays on the E chord for the first 10 measures while the rest of the guitar players solos only stay on E for the first 6 measures. Since the theme clearly has the classic A1/B/A2 sections going on, it's interesting to note that the soloist are staying on the 2nd - 16 measure "A2" section (2nd A, it's alittle different than the 1st A) to solo over. Leon was what? 17 or 19 years old when he got to record this using Open E on a dobro with a pickup? This song lays real good in C6 tuning. I have a book on Western Swing that has everything tabbed out for guitar, this includes the Steel and two different guitarists taking solos plus the theme (guitar tab only).

If you don't know this song yet, "Brads page of steel" has a great arrangement by Brad in Open E (Theme only) under the tab section. I learned this on Open D bottle neck (Brad's) and was able to transfer it onto C6 pretty easy. If you want to hear the theme of "Pan Handle Rag" as played by Leon, it's on Brads site under Leon's bio.

One thing I am also doing is Writing out the different C6 tuning, connected modes from the same parent major scale (Rick Aiello's box concepts) with their different roots on the low 6th string and the low 5th string, kinda like the guitar does, up and down the neck. I figure I will use both Denny's and Rick Aiello's modal box concepts together. For single line soloing and voice leading, I don't feel satisfied yet that I have found the best combinations overall, to get the steel to have a more logical order like I'm used to on the guitar. That's about all for now, I hope I can tab all this out and explain it right for everyone. Thanks<<[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 29 May 2003 at 09:43 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 27 May 2003 7:57 pm

I was just thinking about how there are different tunings that either are great for chords or great for single line work. I think it is pretty challenging trying to piece together a combined approach for C6, so as to bring out the most for ones chord and single line playing. You know those non pedal pioneers of yesteryear went through all of this same frustration too I'm sure. I just wish someone would of been kind enough to save us some notes. But I guess back then guys didn't share as much as they do now. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 28 May 2003 at 06:43 AM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 27 May 2003 9:43 pm

You know those non pedal pioneers of yesteryear went through all of this frustration too I'm sure.

Joaquin was always experimenting with different tunings and when Saturday rolled around, he went to his gig and played it with whatever tunings were on the guitar that week. He had a "gift" where he could strum the open tuning, across the neck, and know where all the notes were up and down the fretboard.

When I was trying to learn his solos, I asked him what his tuning was and how did he run through the diminished structures so fast. His answer was, he had a lot of tunings. After watching him play, it didn't matter what the tuning was, he just skimmed across the strings.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 28 May 2003 2:34 am

Steel Guitar Rag is actually Brad Bechtel's arrangement - not mine. I worked it out in D tuning too but usually play it in C6th.

Re Joaquin's "gift", according to Buddy Emmons (Steel Guitar Forum, 3/98):

HOW TO PRACTICE -
“When I look at the strings on my guitar, I see intervals. I see strings 1 and 2, 1 and 3, or 4 and 5 as whole tones apart. I see major thirds, minor thirds, and see which fret to put the bar for a certain note between those intervals. I see fourths, fifths, sixths, and octaves telling me what string to play when I hear those notes in a melody. To make this work, you must be able to recognize intervals when you hear them. I put as much emphasis on the mental part of practice as the physical. … The beauty of hearing and recognizing intervals is that it will work for any tuning or any instrument. That’s why some people can pick up a strange instrument, listen to its intervals and be playing melodies in a manner of minutes.”
[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 28 May 2003 at 01:11 PM.]

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 28 May 2003 10:29 am

This thread is an eye opener.Now that you have read this fish wrap are you playing any better?Hows your tone? Do you even own a non pedal steel??Do you play from the heart with great feeling?All the head knowledge needs to be directed to the hands.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 May 2003 12:52 pm

Andy, my tone is fair and still improving..

BUT, when I tried the '60 Supro 6s C6/A7 lapsteel after working on some of this stuff on the Sho-Bud middle strings, I was VERY pleasantly surprised at the things that I just played...
From the heart to my hands... because a raft of new licks and possiblities were now in my head.

It was like night and day (no pun) from the last time I had it in my hands and was limited to only 6 strings.

So wrap fish in it if you want...
I will continue to study it and put it to work for me. Because it DOES work. It's there, either learn it or not, but it IS there on the neck. You just have to find it and this is the map.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 May 2003 at 02:06 PM.]