Sho-Bud thread part 2. / BE influence

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 13 Jun 2005 11:01 am

You know this is a great thread for sure. Someone above this post mentioned that we all pull from a pool of sorts to gather the licks we use when we play. I have several steel cd's from the greats that I listen to at different times. Bobbe Seymores is my favorite and I listened to it all the way from nashville to texas one time BUT, as a new steel player, I try not to listen to anybodys work in an effort to develope my own style on this guitar. I don't want to sound like Buddy, Bobbe, my dad or anybody else. Maybe I'm approaching this all wrong but so far I've heard my teacher say that I've done some licks that he's never heard before so maybe not listening and copying the greats is the way to go. I guess time will tell. At any rate, thanks to all the greats who have carefully brought our intrument to the point it is today.

Rick

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 13 Jun 2005 11:25 am

I remember back in the 70's early 80's, being depressed because many of the local steel guitarists were absorbing as much of Buddy's style as they could and were doing pretty well at it..

EVERYONE I respected on a local level was trying hard to get as much of Buddy into thier own playing as they could.

I often felt inadequate, because this was beyond my ability.. I always went looking for the next country rock record so I could pull a few E9 A-B pedal licks off it, and lick my wounds..[ wounds to my ego of course]...

Buddy's playing is still over my head, but I do understand it a little better now.. and no longer feel inadequate , because LOTS of guys had trouble copping Buddy's style/licks/tone etc.. I realize from this forum I wasn't alone!

Actually, over the last few years I guess maybe I was able to morph some of Buddy's great playing into my own average playing.

The guys I copied were most likly copying Buddy's work!!.. He is the most influential steel guitarist of the modern age in my opinion.... bob

Jim Florence · Post by **Jim Florence** » 13 Jun 2005 12:10 pm

When I was young, and was playing with Leon Payne in San Antonio, I was very frustrated not being able to play some of those guy's licks, Leon said "Don't worry about it son, They can't play your licks either". Dunno if it's true or not, but that thought sure helped my frame of mind, from that day forward.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Jun 2005 1:04 pm

I hear BE's influence in all of those players. Check out their copedants.

I realize that, Paul, but I wasn't talking about tunings and pedals, but rather how the artist is trying to sound, stylistically. If you approach 10 steelers, pro or not, and ask them "Who would you like to sound like", 9 of them would say "Emmons". While all the ones I mentioned doubtless owe much to Emmons, they never really tried to emulate his sound. Guys like Moon, Curls, and Pete had their own sound and style they were pursuing. Sure, they admired and learned things from Emmons, but they never tried to sound like him, as so many other thousands of steelers have done.

Archie Nicol · Post by **Archie Nicol** » 13 Jun 2005 3:29 pm

Paul. I am still an arsehole.

What was I thinking about,
Arch.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 14 Jun 2005 4:55 am

Donny,

You're talking about emulating or copying BE's playing style which makes almost all of the pro's I know exempt, not just the ones you mentioned.

I am saying Buddy has influenced or inspired others into musical directions without them having to emulate exactly his licks, especially the creative minds of other pro's like the ones you mentioned. The players you mentioned were still influenced by BE because he was so far advanced in the pedal steel's formative years and anyone, like Bobbe's great story above, that witnessed Buddy early on, will tell you, "it changed their perspective of what is possible" after they did. That's the influence BE had within all of the pro's playing.

Bobbe,

Your post is a great example of how witnessing Buddy's playing Influenced us all. This is what I'm talking about. Back in the earliest days even Chalker along with all the players mentioned in this thread were only exploring one or at the most a couple of musical paths. Because Buddy conquered the whole musical spectrum and was the first to do so on the pedal steel guitar his influence is abundant within every player I have ever heard.

Oh yeah,
I agree all players influence each other which is exactly the way the pedal steel has reached this point, and I like the term Golden players. For clarity I am NOT implying that Buddy is the only influence heard in pro players. I am saying that he is the one player that has been able to influence every player a little which I believe makes him a unique cornerstone in the foundation of great steel guitarists.

Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 14 June 2005 at 05:57 AM.]

Chuck McGill · Post by **Chuck McGill** » 14 Jun 2005 5:10 am

I had the great pleasure of living in the same town with Carl Perkins and working in the local music store. Carl would come in and
sit and pick with me. Most people didn't realize his ability as a player but he was great. One day he and I were picking and I mentioned to him I was going to steal his licks. He looked at me with a grin and said "Son you can't steal what I want you to have." I think all great players like Buddy
Emmons are happy to share the genius they pocess.
[This message was edited by Chuck McGill on 14 June 2005 at 06:11 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 14 Jun 2005 5:36 am

Spent the weekend with Jim Loessberg's "Sawed Off Shotgun" in the truck CD player. I heard some snippets of steel that sound like Jeff Newman, others that sound like BE, a couple of Jimmy Day like struck note sequences, and even one that reminded me of a Bobbe Seymour run.

Can a guy get a copyright on one note?

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 14 Jun 2005 3:33 pm

Buddy has influenced or inspired others into musical directions without them having to emulate exactly his licks

Speaking for myself, it was not so much the licks or the tone but the musical CONCEPTS expressed in Buddy's playing that hooked me to the pedal guitar for life - what he did with "Rainbows All Over Your Blues" is just one huge smiling "YES!"

While I can't deny spending plenty of time over the years trying to master some of his licks, the biggest influence on me is undoubtedly just the sense of how to use rythm, melody and harmony on this marvelous instrument. Oh yeah, that and how it's tuned, how it works and a chunk of it's name....

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<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Jun 2005 7:29 pm

I once had a music teacher who said

" Learn everything, then forget it.
What comes out will be you,
the assorted product of your influeneces,
but not THIER style, only yours."

This early on pertains to technique, and to some extent style,
derived of your main influences,
but later it is only something you like a small part of in a player you like.

The greats, the "Golden Players",
I can tell did some very similar paths to this philosophy.
Lloyd and Buddy certainly.

Often their copedents were a by-product of their search for new input,
and how it came out later in their musical inner ear.

I love Buddy's playing, and I have worked on some of his tab.
But more for ways to get from point A to point B,
not to play his songs verbatim.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 14 June 2005 at 08:32 PM.]

Ray Uhl · Post by **Ray Uhl** » 14 Jun 2005 10:20 pm

Thanks, Bobbe for the information on Buddy and Walter Haynes. I remember the year Walter was inducted into the Hall of Fame. When he played I thought WOW, so this is where Buddy got some of his ideas. I saw Walter in the hall later and jokingly said to him, "Now I know where Buddy got his licks". He laughed and said, "We use to jam a lot, years ago". I would like to hear more from Walter Haynes. I was truly impressed.

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 15 Jun 2005 7:31 am

Great thread Paul!
does anyone happen know the year those Little Darlin' demo's were cut in NY w/Sonny Curtis and The Jones Boys? Depending on the year,Sonny may have been playing Emmons Stereo Guitar ser# 8-64/003 on those recordings.
thanx,

MC

Bruce W Heffner · Post by **Bruce W Heffner** » 16 Jun 2005 2:59 am

Great Topic Paul! Buddy's playing was the first steel guitar I ever knowingly heard. It infuenced me to find out what the steel guitar was and is present in most every thing I try to play today. I will never sound like Buddy, although his ideas and concepts will always be with me. He is and will always be the greatest.

Sincerely,

Bruce

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www.pedalsteel.net

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 16 Jun 2005 4:42 am

Years ago in my native England, I would keep hearing snippets of steel guitar on various recordings on the radio. They got my attention, if only for the musical possibilities that PSG clearly possessed.

The catalyst came, though, when I heard Ray Charles' version of 'Wichita Lineman'; the steel solo so perfectly complemented that heart-rending vocal that I determined at that very moment to buy a steel guitar. My friend, Gerry Hogan (already a steel-player by then), told me that it was Buddy Emmons on that track, and I was a fan from that day to this.

Buddy manages to connect to the listener's soul somehow; it goes way beyond mere talent, but is a gift given to very few musicians in any field.

Roger Rettig[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 16 June 2005 at 05:46 AM.]

Ron Carpenter · Post by **Ron Carpenter** » 16 Jun 2005 6:37 pm

Like nearly every player I've ever known, I started out covering the lines on records. Through the 60s, 70s, & 80s there was a lot of BE on the radio.

A few years ago Paul reccomended the Jamie Aebersole course work to me. One of the neat ideas to get my music out of me was to record myself scat singing the lines...the way it is in my head. Then learn to play those ideas. That's a lot of work. Especially if you want each song to stand on it's own legs.

Thanks to that idea, people say I have my own sound. To me...it's still influenced by BE, SG, and Paul.

That begining influence will always be there for each player, IMHO. The direction it takes after that is what makes variety.

All my best,
Ron

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 18 Jun 2005 4:11 am

Buddy Emmons may have been influenced by some of the early players but what separates him is the "Total Package" he has become. Today there are many great players and Paul Franklin is on top of the list. I personally listen to many different steel players with Buddy Emmons being my favorite. The reason being is I love his style, his tone and his ability to play both necks at such a high level. No one knows how many licks he has come up with and then to be a major part in designing pedal steel guitars just adds to his accomplishments. I was at the Texas show the night Paul Franklin played along with Hal Rugg, John Hughey and Randy Beavers. The tone Paul Franklin had that night was awesome. I remember the man next to me commenting about how his guitar sounded live compared to being recorded. The engineers control that I would imagine so it would be out of Paul Franklins hands. Today I consider Paul Franklin to be great just as I have considered Buddy Emmons to be great. I could sit down and watch both men play all day long. Now that is a dream.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 18 Jun 2005 4:32 am

Paul King, well said!
Now all we need is for Paul F and Buddy to do Bell Cove, and a DVD of the event. Just imagine those two great minds working away and supporting each other. Wow!
How about it Paul F?

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<img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20saut/images/nightmarefront85.jpg" border="0">Nic du Toit
1970 Rosewood P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x4
1980 Basket Weave P/P Emmons SD10 3x5
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied
My CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
<A class=db href="mailto:alsaut@absamail.co.za?subject=Forum Reply">Click here to E-mail us.</A>

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 18 Jun 2005 7:16 am

how about a tape with Buddy,Paul and Lloyd jaming together.I think I would pay whatever is asked for just to get that tape..

Db

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Jun 2005 2:41 pm

I was sitting backstage one time with BJ Cole and he put it really well. He said "Buddy is so basic to the formation of the instrument and how its played that I feel like I'm playing Buddy's brain".

Bob

Bobby Caldwell · Post by **Bobby Caldwell** » 18 Jun 2005 5:18 pm

The great jazz guitar player Wes Montgomery said it best. " Since we don't live in a vacuum,we must listen to the masters". I think we are all products of our inviorment. I like many kinds of music and it shows in in my playing. I hear Miles Davis And many other jazz players in Buddy's playing because thats what he listened to. I also hear the great steel players that came before him in his playing. But I also hear things from Buddy that were never played before in his playing. That means he found himself and put it all together. Bobby

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 Jun 2005 7:38 am

Bobby, very well observed, and stated!

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 19 Jun 2005 8:55 am

Let us not confuse being influenced by someone with being a protege of someone. Or a clone. As has been said, few people live in a vacuum. Even a style of playing that may not interest me (I am not speaking of anyone who has been mentioned in this thread--just a generalisation) is likely to leave some kind of mark.
The thing I cannot begin to understand is the comment "you should have heard John Doe play Way To Survive---he nailed the E thing".
You never hear anyone say "I saw the work of this wonderful young painter---he can do a Mona Lisa that is just like the original--it's fantastic!!". At least I hope to never hear that.

Jelle Biel · Post by **Jelle Biel** » 19 Jun 2005 12:07 pm

Great thread,,,,,,
Where can we find the Big E in the world of
prof. dr.ERVIN LASZLO??
(also a GREAT MUSICIAN)

Ervin Laszlo's unusual career spans music, philosophy, science, futures studies, and world affairs. Born in Budapest, Hungary in 1932, his talent for music was discovered at the age of five. At seven he was admitted to the Franz Liszt Academy. His debut with the Budapest Philharmonic at the age of nine established him as one of the great child prodigies of the time. Following a hiatus of barely a year due to the siege of Budapest at the end of World War II, Laszlo embarked on an international music career, highlighted by the Grand Prize of the International Music Competition of Geneva in 1947, and a New York recital debut a few months later. Just fifteen, he was hailed by New York critics as an artist who has few peers among pianists of any age. With major write-ups in LIFE, Time, Newsweek, and other national and international media, he settled in New York and traveled from there to tour the five continents.

http://www.greatmystery.org/laszlo.html http://www.physlink.com/Education/essay_laszlo.cfm http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/1996/subtle.html

Jelle

[This message was edited by Jelle Biel on 19 June 2005 at 01:33 PM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 19 Jun 2005 1:46 pm

Well said!
Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 19 June 2005 at 02:47 PM.]

Jimmy Douglas · Post by **Jimmy Douglas** » 19 Jun 2005 3:56 pm

Minion that I am I have been reluctant to add anything here but this is a fascinating topic. For what it is worth I feel that Buddy is to PSG like Coleman Hawkins is to saxophone or Wes Montgomery is to Jazz Guitar. As Mr. King put it the Total Package.

I have never seen Buddy play in person and became interested in steel through the old WS players, like many players I started by trying to copy records, I had never heard of BE until I bought a Curtis Gordon record which has a track called Play the Music Louder, Buddy's solo on that is like the whole of WS steel in eight or so bars! astounding.

One player IMHO who although he plays an Emmons guitar seems to me to have a very unique style is the gentleman who played with King Sunny Ade, not much direct influence to my ears but what do I know.

This I suppose begs the question of how much influence does the environment, musical and otherwise have on creative invention?

[This message was edited by Jimmy Douglas on 19 June 2005 at 07:39 PM.]