Sho-Bud thread part 2. / BE influence

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 12 Jun 2005 9:00 am

b0b,
All threads drift off topic, Why close this one?
Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 12 June 2005 at 10:19 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Jun 2005 9:20 am

Among the "name" pedal players I consider pretty unique in their stylings are Chalker, Drake, Day, Haynes, Mooney, Kleinow, and maybe a half-dozen others. That would total about 12 players. Everyone else out there (maybe 100-150 famous players), if not a direct "Emmons clone", is at least seriously influenced by him.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 12 Jun 2005 9:26 am

If everybody is seriously influenced by Buddy Emmons, how come nobody can sound like him?

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 12 Jun 2005 9:32 am

Donny,
I hear BE's influence in all of those players. Check out their copedants. It is impossible to compete in the studio/road workplace and not be influenced by the workers around you.
Everytime someone splits those A and B pedals they are mimicking a former Emmons move. Their original style comes from how they interpret those moves into musical phrases. But at some point they all copied his idea for splitting those notes.

Paul

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 12 Jun 2005 9:36 am

Earnest,

It's simple.
Buddy was the first to play so many of the standard moves you and I use on records that most copy him and sound a little like him without even knowing it, which is what Tommy said in his post on the locked thread.

Paul

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 12 Jun 2005 9:47 am

Ernest,

I don't believe anyone can become another player because at some point in time some outside influence sneaks in. That influence seperates their likes and dislikes from the one they envy. At that point their playing changes from the one they were trying to emulate.

All musicians are influenced by what they hear and see. We would have to be blind and deaf to be free of outside influences.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 12 June 2005 at 10:48 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 12 June 2005 at 10:53 AM.]

Mike Archer · Post by **Mike Archer** » 12 Jun 2005 9:53 am

i agree wilh mr franklin
the big E has had a major impact on how
we all play steel guitar and yes there are others as well but when i started playing steel some 23 years a go buddy emmons style was in my ears hard and so
was paul franklin and many others you get a little from all players and here is the kicker... even new players can show us old players a new lick we always wanted to learn!! players like JH CHALKER AND GREEN
MAN theres some great things for all!!
but to me the big e is my main one

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 12 Jun 2005 9:56 am

And Buddie got his from Bud Isaacs and Walter Haynes?
When I first heard Buddie in 1954, he sounded so much like Walter I thought it was him at first, the Bigsbys and all. Remember Jimmy Dicken's "We Could"?
I think Buddy had just come to Nashville and Walter was the legend everyone was trying to sound like, of course the style all came from Bud Isaacs originally, three years earlier.
Not to take anything away from Buddy, because he did take these styles and played them well.
I agree that Mr. "E" has had a lot of influence on all of us, but lets face the facts, , we all have a lot of influence on "all of us". I listen to everyone, possibly not knowingly, but we all learn as a group, from each other. Paul F., Tommy White, Doug Jernigan and even myself influence players everywhere. I have heard young players play my CDs,exactly like I did them, from front to back and sounded more like me than I do.
To say one person started this all and is the sole person responsible for everything is not correct, several, if not all players need to share in this evolution.
Buddy? Definitely one of the finest, no question. However, just one of many influences in this field. One of mine, along with many others.
Just a question here, how come no one ever credits the founder of this "E to A" style to it's original innovator, Mr. Bud Isaacs? He was the guy that we all go back to in the real beginning, this is where Buddy got the roots of his style, correct?
I'd love to hear Buddy's take on this. He did a great job in the process!!!!!
Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 12 June 2005 at 11:02 AM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 12 June 2005 at 11:46 AM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 12 June 2005 at 11:47 AM.]

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 12 Jun 2005 10:15 am

Paul, you are exactly correct about being influenced. I do not intentionally listen to other steel players, in an effort to sound like ME. When I first started playing music (several instruments), I listened to everything available in order to see what was "selling". As much as I try to be different, it is impossible to play a style that doesn't sound in some way like other steel players. When I am hired to back a singer, the singer usually knows what he wants in the background and I have to give him the sound he wants. It is very difficult to get paid and at the same time play entirely the way I want to play. This is not always the case, but it is the norm..... JD

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 12 Jun 2005 10:36 am

I know my dad was influenced greatly by Jerry Byrds style. Possibly in the start of things Buddy was too. I do my very best not to sound like anybody. So far I'm doing a great job at that.

Rick

Post by **b0b** » 12 Jun 2005 11:38 am

Paul, don't confuse closing a topic with censorship. Topics that drift are often closed because of the effect they have on the search process. It's not hard to create a new topic when you want to talk about a different subject.

The subjective topic of BE's influence on steel guitar players has nothing to do with the objective topic concerning what guitars Lloyd Green played before Sho-Bud. Dave's question had been asked and answered, and the off topic replies were about to spill onto a second page. Better to start a new topic.

------------------
<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/b0bxicon.gif" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
System Administrator 
My Blog

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 12 Jun 2005 12:34 pm

Well how about this one and I'm trying to keep this on topic as much as possible.

[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 13 June 2005 at 03:01 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 12 Jun 2005 2:40 pm

Me, I'm just grateful to be able to have been a fan and a weekend player for several decades. And being able to at times meet and talk to the likes of Loyd, Buddy, Paul,Tommy , Bobbie ,John H , Russ..etc..etc...etc..
makes it all that much better.

Having a bandmate tell me "Man, that sounds just like xxx " makes it all worth while....I'll take the influence wherever I can get it thank you very much....

t

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 12 Jun 2005 2:44 pm

I had a long post prepared with hundreds of hits from all different steel players that I've tried to emulate in 25 years of playing thousands of "cover gigs", but it just got too long and complex.

I think, with most of the stylistic, and technical playing covered so well in our music and the artists and players that "influenced' it all, and thereby being impossible to "sort out", it boils down to one main thing, at least for me.

Buddy Emmons' Personality has influenced more players them most others with that alone. I remember recordings that weren't "perfect" I guess in retrospect, but I get the picture or the man that put(s) his whole heart into his life and playing.

To use another area to illustrate:

He was/is probably to Pedal Steel Playing what Mohammed Ali was to a lot of us that came to know him when we were young in other areas of our lives.

Cults of Personality.

Much like Jimmy Day, Bud Charleton, Lloyd Green and many others.

Mohammed Ali wasn't probably the "best" boxer, technically" ( I happen to think he was, but that's for the "boxing forum"), but he had the most "Influence" on a generation of young people.

Maybe there were better Generals than Robt E Lee, US Grant, WTS, and TJ 'Stonewall' (Old "Blue Light") Jackson but none with as much "Influence" on their men.

Yup. Cults of "Personality".

Having one is the trick I think to starting one.

Some of the more technical or prolific players have missed it on this account. Maybe the ones that have tried the hardest have missed by the biggest margin. Kind of hard to be taken as an "Idol" when you're doing federal time, or on the plaintiff's side of bulls#hit lawsuits.

Not all of them started out with this "Influence" in mind, nor is it important to some of them, Bud Charleton probably has been the most intent on becoming the person that catches the most bass in Virginia. He's probably produced more great players than anybody I can think of, (me not necessarily being one of them) It's not something you can get by trying, or run away from if you have it.

Maybe it is in "the stars"...

No "conclusion", just a view from the bush league.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 12 June 2005 at 04:06 PM.]

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 12 Jun 2005 2:57 pm

Bobbe,
BE was on prairie Home Companion a while back, and he did give Bud Isaccs credit for starting the E/A change, he even played " The Waltz You Saved For Me" like BI played it on the original cut. I didn't get to hear all of it , but just bits, and pieces, sounded cool.

Bill

Mike Archer · Post by **Mike Archer** » 12 Jun 2005 3:00 pm

I guess for me i do listen to all steel players and i also respect them all players dont play alike but have a new twist on
another players lick that he may have heard from another player
and the players bobbie talked about are also what i would call golden players
because they were there makin it happen
as i came into steel guitar i just
remmeber how buddys tone and touch
pulled my heart strings
but now there are other players that also
do that very well and on and on....

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 12 Jun 2005 4:22 pm

After the sun goes down, and the mist has cleared, b0b is always right.

Just my humble opinion, based on several years of observation.

That's not to say this topic isn't cool. Write on....

-John

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 12 Jun 2005 7:18 pm

Bill Ford! Great, I'm glad to hear this and I'm very sorry I didn't hear BE on PHC myself. I know it had to be great.
Buddy was wonderful, even as a kid on his triple neck Bigsby, no, incredible is what he was. Talk about a child prodigy! Rough and violent, rich and big, everything he played was exciting and touched everybody's emotions. Wow, at seventeen years old this was happening.
The day I met him in 1955 he was playing with Jimmy Dickens at a big concert in Norfolk VA., I sat and watched him play, just he and I in the dressing room between shows for three hours. Possibly the greatest three hours in my life. It was the three hours that changed me and set the direction for the remainder of my life.
I don't know if I could have been happier doing something else or not, but I can't imagine what else could have been better than steel guitar.
Thank you Buddy!
Jerry Byrd started me off, Bud Isaacs kicked me into gear, Buddy finished me off, with a lot of wonderful help from hundreds of other great players, and it's still happening, over 50 years later!
Great thread Paul,

bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 12 Jun 2005 7:21 pm

Mike Archer, "Golden Players"----- what a wonderful thing to say, a great way to put it. A beautiful observation of our incredible steel guitar history. Yes, they are the "Golden Players"!

Bobbe

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 12 Jun 2005 7:57 pm

Bobbe, I believe PHC has their shows archieved on their Home page.?? Can someone verify this?

Roger

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 12 Jun 2005 11:29 pm

Prairie Home Companion Archive - 5/1/04.

BTW: Buddy played the whole show. Not just the instrumental.

------------------
My best,
Ernie

www.buddyemmons.com

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 13 Jun 2005 1:18 am

You know as I read all this about players and licks, guitars and such there's one thing that comes to mind. This is my opinion, but I think there's basically a "Pool of Licks" that we all pull from when we play. I think every player has contributed to the "pool" at one time or another. This is one reason I'm always interested in who a player listened to when they were learning especially. Steel players have to have somewhere to draw from for licks and different sounds. I don't think any one person is solely responsible for the steel guitar as it is today. There's been so many over the years that have contributed to the instrument. One thing I have noticed is that the steel guitar basically advanced over the years through different stages. Each stage of progress seemed to have "main players" that were in a position to really advance the steel even to the point to where it is today. I'm just curious about what the next stage will bring. I like the "Golden players " idea by the way.

Mike Archer · Post by **Mike Archer** » 13 Jun 2005 10:08 am

thanks bobbe!!
and i dont know anyone who plays as good as you and has done so much for all us other
players!! and theres other players here in east tn that are great players as well
bryan adams eddie trent david martin
steve leonard tony dingus and many more!!
you are a golden player just like buddy
green and all the rest bobbe !
paul franklin you da man!!
tommy white so are you and so many more......................

Frank Estes · Post by **Frank Estes** » 13 Jun 2005 10:26 am

Conincidentally, I have been viewing the Bell Cove live video of Buddy and Hal from 2002. There is nobody like Buddy! Wow! This video is a MUST-HAVE! http://www.buddyemmons.com/BellCove.htm
[This message was edited by Frank Estes on 13 June 2005 at 11:33 AM.]