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Topic: C6th lap steel modal theory site |
Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 23 May 2003 9:40 am |
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Rick, I'm not mixing anything up wrong when it comes to the guitar and it's modes with their root on the low 6th string. Look at the root note and the name of the mode as it climbs up the guitar neck (up in pitch). That is the same way for piano and sax etc. Now look at the C6 steel neck, (forget about the root notes)same modal names connected to each other, only the same order of connection(mode names) found in other instruments is going down on the steel neck towards the lower pitched end of the instrument. Could you please write out a simply little chart like I did up above so I can be sure where you are coming from. I know you know your math Prof! Thanks...
P.S. Mike, your not catching on to what I'm trying to say to Rick. I play sax like Charlie Parker, but guitar is my main love and I'm a heavy weight player. I'm pointing out something only found in a Open tuning and therefore unique to C6 steel. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 May 2003 at 11:53 AM.] |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 23 May 2003 10:08 am
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Jesse, you're modest, too, which is why I like you so much. 
I'll try to give another look to your explanations, but to be honest, I sort of bailed out a few posts ago. Nevertheless, it's always good to hear guys talking theory. |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 23 May 2003 10:47 am
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Mike, me saying that I play sax like bird, means I can quote the Omni book note for note on allot of his songs. I've gone through Jamie's books and allot of theory books on Bird's approaches to improvising. I paid some dues on horn, that has nothing to do with being modest and has every thing to do with allot of hard work. You put me in the position to have to qualify myself. I'm not modest, I'm just bona fide bro.! 
This reflected mirror thing I see in the C6 neck is something I have never seen in theory before. I thought I could rip on bottle neck guitar, but I never saw this inverse thing before found in open tunings. That's why I think it's important to understand why it's there. Maybe it's too weird to even consider for most people, I just thought Rick could figure it out if he saw what I was talking about. I gotta start writing out some new charts for Open G and Open D bottle neck tunings because of this C6 modal chart stuff.  [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 09:04 AM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 23 May 2003 11:45 am
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Jesse ... I certainly wasn't questioning your abilities/knowledge/etc. on spanish guitar or any other instrument ... just pointing out something that I still believe is the "root" (pun intended) of this issue.
quote:
Guitar/F major scale/root note low 6th string
G Dorian 3rd fret
A Phrygian 5th fret
Bb Lydian 6th fret
C Mixolydian 8th fret
D Aolean 10th fret
E Locrian 12th fret
F Ionian 13th fret
C6 non pedal steel - C root note
C Dorian 17th to 15th fret
C Phrygian 15 to 13 fret
C Lydian 14 to 12 fret
C Mixolydian 12 to 10 fret
C Aolean 10 to 8 fret
C Locrian 8 to 6 fret
C Ionian 7 to 5 fret
C Dorian 5 to 3 fret
C Phrygian 3 to 1 fret
C Lydian 2 to 0 fret
See, See, See what I meannn!!!
Basically you are discussing the naming of the F modal series(G dorian, A phyrgian, etc) in the first example ... then comparing it to the naming of the modal series associated with the Modes of C (C dorian, C phyrgian).
I was trying to point out that you are comparing two completely different SERIES here ... The F Modal Series vs. the Modes of C.
For analytical processes, it is best to vary only one thing at a time ... keeping all other things constant.
My suggestion is still to look at the F Mode Series on the C6 tuning (G dorian, A phyrigian, etc)... and you will see that they lay out and progress in the same direction.
As far as comparing C6 to spanish tuning in terms of modes ... the only difference that I can see is that there are NO COMPLETE WHOLE STEP modal boxes in spanish tuning ... just fragments.
I don't think there is any "voodoo mathematics" at play here ... just a perception issue. |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 23 May 2003 12:30 pm
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Rick, the series that I am comparing is the modal interval box's(denny's mode box's) that I wrote individual charts out for on page 2 at 15 May 2003, 7:14pm. These charts are accepted to be correct by everyone. I simply asked the question, which of these modal box charts "share the same exact intervals/positions located on either side of the box's. I know the Spanish guitar is set up this way when examining all 7 modes in a particular key and playing their root notes on the low 6th string as a point of reference. This is how Carlos and allot of other guitar players get rid of their fear of heights of how to go up the neck. The same thing holds true for the connected Steel interval charts I spoke of first in this post.
*The order of the names is the same for the guitar and steel, but the frets/positions go up on guitar while the frets/positions go down (using denny's box's and connecting them) for the steel. I wrote out charts for you to see this taking place. You didn't write out any charts of your own for me to understand why you don't get this. I can't tell if your playing now or not, not that you have in the past but this seems easy to see, that it exists by the charts. I'm gonna drop the subject now unless someone catches on and wants to talk about it. Thanks anyways... [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 07:34 AM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 23 May 2003 1:34 pm
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| Quote: |
| I can't tell if your playing now or not, not that you have in the past but this seems easy to see, that it exists by the charts |
I don't play games ...
G Dorian in C6 - root on Low C
Fret Strings (6 to 1)
6 3b 3b
7 1 5 6 1
8 4 7b 4
9 2 6 2
A Phyrigian in C6 - Root on Low C
Fret Strings (6 to 1)
9 1
10 2b 4 6 7b 2b 4
11
12 3b 5 7b 1 3b 5
Bb Lydian in C6 - Root on Low C
Fret Strings (6 to 1)
10 1 3 5 6 1 3
11
12 2 4# 6 7 2 4#
C Mixolydian in C6 - Root on Low C
Fret Strings (6 to 1)
12 1 3 5 6 1 3
13 4 7b 4
14 2 6 2
Just like on your spanish tuning ... as you go up in pitch (toward the bridge) the names are G Dorian, A Phyrigian, Bb Lydian, C Mixolydian .....
Your constant was the Root note on the Low E, therefore for analysis (comparison of spanish to C6) ... you have to keep the root on the Low C.
These are obviously not the whole step modal boxes that were the theme of this thread ... but neither are the ones you play on guitar.
I hope this clears it up for you ... [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 May 2003 at 03:02 PM.] |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 23 May 2003 3:17 pm
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Rick, cool! I understand your charts perfectly, thanks. Your are going by the low 6th string, as the point of reference for the root notes of these new patterns/box's (Rick's modal box's) that spell out the modes for the F major scale and they go up the neck like the guitar neck does with it's root names on the low 6 string. I wrote out and connected the intervals/pitch names of each mode with a different colored pen and it is correct with what you are saying and travels up the neck in key. I referred to this concept in a earlier post as "inversions of Denny's box's" which he stated did not exist. This is not what I was trying to show you unfortunately.
I was connecting "Denny's modal box's" anywhere that (two ends of two separate box's had the same arrangement of intervals) and when I was done, I came up with something odd that went from one end of the neck of the steel to the other. I won't keep going over it since I feel I have talked enough about it. I will keep doing my research on what I found and if I find a better way to explain it, I'll show you what I came up with. Thanks for your help, I always really appreciate it. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 07:45 AM.] |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 23 May 2003 5:34 pm
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Well Guys, I can't "give up" here. If someone knowledgeable says what I see is wrong, then I want to learn why for my benefit. I don't want to miss something ... and trust the other person(s) feel the same way. THANKS JESS; keep it up until we reconcile our perspectives (and by the way, I too believe there is some important math in the sequencing of steps in the 6th tuning ... and also cannot find it ... but suspect it exists in the same-note existing on the middle 2 strings in a box on the Steel ... which shifts the half steps properly in the box's inversions as they "move" along the neck).
OK, ...I'm cinched and my hats on tight; ...open the gate:
I see the spanish / steel comparison discussion in the same way Rick does ... that the same modal mechanics and opposite directions of modal steps vs Parent modal scale (which by inference obviously means modal chords as well), occur in the same manner on the steel guitar (regardless of tuning) as it does on the spanish guitar regardless of tuning. (tuning only defines the fret width or flag protrusions of a box which you will find when you start charting triad-only open tunings that will need an extra 2 frets flag protrusion for the 6th note that the 6th tuning pulls into a 2-fret box):
When we speak of spanish guitar we MUST qualify that the finger positions used for our discussion MUST remain the same and simply move up and down the neck just like the steel bar does with the Steel in comparison.
Now, I have learned that I can take the standard "E" type barre chord on spanish guitar, and put my pinky on standby for the 6th note in the barre chord's second octave, .... and I can DUPLICATE the C6 mode boxes in both chord and scale, by using the second octave of the barre chord (1,3,5,6,1) and using the first octave (1,5,1) supplementally. (And there is not any missing intervals in that 2 fret box's second octave when the pinky is on standby for the 6th note in the chord and 5th note in extension). BUT I PROPOSE / TEACH THIS METHOD ONLY FOR CHORD SUBSTITUTION (easy "wing it" shortcut technique). The E Major7 SCALE finger position relative to the same root as the "E" type barre chord works better for SCALES substitution on spanish guitar. IN EITHER CASE the box that contains the Parent mode scale AND the parent mode chord, MOVES DOWNWARD RELATIVE TO THE MODE STEPS MOVING UPWARD ... identical to the Steel. (The scale box is also NOT missing intervals, ... it's just 4 frets wide to span the wider intervals between strings).
Now, why is this and what makes it confusing?: First let's start on spanish guitar with an E type barre chord, triad-only like every guitar player knows, on the 2nd fret making it G chord. Now we're in the same key and place as Jesse's Santanna example:
Where do we move that barre chord to make it a min7 Dorian? We move it to the same place we do on Steel. OK, so now we know the chords work the same way so we can set them aside.
Now, MAINTAINING A SAME FINGER POSITION AS WE MUST DO TO COMPARE IT WITH THE STEEL'S CHUNK OF STEEL TO PLAY IT WITH: WHERE DO WE MOVE THE G MAJOR SCALE AT THE SPANISH GUITAR'S 2ND FRET TO MAKE IT min7 DORIAN? We MUST move it down to FMaj7 to get Gmin7. OK, now we know that the Parent scale moves downward on the spanish guitar if we are confined to using the same finger pattern. So how does this compare to Steel (AND HERE IS WHERE THE MISSING KEY IS IMHO):
Does the Maj7 scale move downward on Steel like it does on spanish guitar? YES IT DOES; IDENTICALLY:
If we are to play CMaj7 SCALE on Steel, we get it in the box formed between F6 and G6. NOW, WHERE IS Dmin7 Dorian SCALE? It's in the same box. Where is Emin7b6b9 Phrygian SCALE? It's in the same box. So how do we make CMaj7 SCALE a Cmin7 Dorian SCALE? WE SIMPLY MOVE THE CMaj7 SCALE BOX DOWN 1 WHOLE STEP SO THAT THE BbMaj7 SCALE AFFORDS US THE PARENT Maj7 SCALE THAT Cmin7 DORIAN WOULD COME FROM. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DID ON SPANISH GUITAR.
Now I simply cannot find any difference between what happens on spanish guitar mode / substitution wise UNLESS we are free to start using different finger positions on spanish guitar; In which case we'll have to invent some sort of steel bar thang that will radically change shapes upon command ( yikes, ... pedals  ) to make different chords and scales on Steel similarly possible for a meaningful comparison.
WHAT AM I MISSING HERE? 
ALOHA,
Denny T~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 06:40 PM.] |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 23 May 2003 5:48 pm
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Jess,
Can you chart out those "other" boxes you refer to as existing other than the ones I chart? If you're talking about partial boxes, ... then never mind, ...that's obvious.
THANKS,
ALOHA,
DT~ |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 23 May 2003 10:14 pm
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I can't rest until all participants are one the same page ... 
The fact of the matter is ... COMPLETE WHOLE STEP BOXES only exist in open 6th (maybe 13ths) tunings and DO NOT EVEN OCCUR in spanish tuning ... Period.
That is the only difference I see between C6 modes and spanish tuning modes.
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 24 May 2003 at 09:39 PM.] |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 24 May 2003 2:58 am
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| Quote: |
| (The scale box is also NOT missing intervals, ... it's just 4 frets wide to span the wider intervals between strings). |
I have always looked a modes in a flexible box size on the bass depending on what was required.
I am still digesting this stuff in a dyslexic fashion, but it's great!
LOL
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 24 May 2003 3:33 am
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Rick,
Regarding your:
| Quote: |
| The fact of the matter is ... COMPLETE WHOLE STEP BOXES only exist in open 6th (maybe 13ths) tunings and DO NOT EVEN OCCUR in spanish tuning ... Period. |
Are you allowing ONLY whole step boxes for spanish guitar in that statement? Are you disallowing 3 or more fret wide boxes on spanish?
Do the boxes you refer to have to have square boxes or can you allow us boxes with "flag" protrusions?
And is your reference to a "spanish guitar box" simply in it's open tuning, ... or are you "allowing" spanish guitar boxes with set finger patterns therein?
The reason I ask is that I think of FINGERED spanish chord and scale patterns as being in boxes. Just trying to clarify your presentation in my mind for common ground.
Thanks,
ALOHA,
DT~
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 24 May 2003 3:36 am
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A very dear friend, Nick Masters, who passed away with cancer a few years ago, was lead guitarist, saxaphonist and steel player for Bill Haley and The Comets (late '60's / early '70's). Nick was one of the first pedal steelers in the Philedelphia area in the '50's. When I first started seriously on lap steel about 11 years ago, Nick told me about a tuning called "E Tude" ... which he could play the heck out of lap steel with. What I wrote down is lost in the black hole of "stuff" here at the house. I have not heard of the tuning since.
Has anyone else heard of the tuning, and what it's intervals and roots are?
The tuning was so kapakai it just might fit into the discussions here to analyze it's boxes.
Thank You,
ALOHA,
DT~
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 24 May 2003 3:37 am
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So many note combinations ...and so little time.
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 24 May 2003 at 04:47 AM.] |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 24 May 2003 8:01 am
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Well, after reading our posts again and adding a few more words here and there to some of my own posts for clarification purposes, I would like to try and clear something up with Rick and Denny.
Rick, on page three at 22 may 2003at 7:20pm, you spoke about what I have been tripping on, you said in the lower half of that post "The coolest thing I learned was how some modes share half their notes with another mode". My post in response was right after yours at 22 may 2003 8:46. I was speaking about how I was calling this (Denny's mode box's) my "Shared fret/interval modal box connections chart". So it seems we were on the same page or should I say "box", at least at one point that is. Sorry I missed referring us back to this starting point.
On guitar if you want to play all the modes found in a key with the same root note placed on all these modes, you will be in the same general position on the guitar neck. On steel, if you want to do this you end up traveling up and down the neck, but the order of the modes goes in the opposite direction than it does in regular theory sequencing. I noticed that your 22 may 2003 7:20pm post (The coolest thing I learned) post did not speak about this reversal of direction of mode name order.
On guitar if you want to play all the modes found in a key so that each mode has a different root note as found in the parent major key, and use the low 6th string for all the root note placements, you end up traveling up and down the whole neck. On steel, if you want to have all of the different root notes found in a key(Denny's box's), you end up in a 3 fret area.
This inverse thing between "Denny's modal box's" and the "guitars modal box's" I feel holds a deep secret. If one can find it, maybe he will find other useful inverse relationships between the steel and guitar or just standard theory. That's what I am tripping on and trying to find. "Rick's modal box's are correct" and move like the guitar does, but since Denny's box's sound so good, that's what I am focusing on right now.
Denny. I am not saying you are wrong on anything really, I'm just suggesting that some other perspectives in the long term are more effective. I know horn player's that just play the major scale that a mode belongs to, but they don't land on chord tones at the right place in a measure as much as they should. Your modal navigation is right on and easier for a newbie to get a good sound right off the bat. A well versed player can take what he already knows and use your modal box's and substitutions and sound great pretty fast. And yes, I's thinks both you and Rick is Bona fide! [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 09:44 AM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 24 May 2003 8:15 am
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Denny ... I was trying to address the "shared note - shared fret" naming phenomenon that Jesse was referring to:
C Dorian - Spanish Tuning
7 6 2
8 1 4 7b 3b 5 1
9
10 2 5 1 4 6 2
11 3b 7b 3b
C Ionian - Spanish tuning
9 7 3
10 2 5 1 4 6 2
11
12 3 6 2 5 7 3
13 4 1 4
I realize these are called boxes and they "note share" between modes at a fret ....
I was hoping to show that because of the common practice of stepping out of the WHOLE STEP box employed by spanish players ... and the fact that there are several of these "pseudo boxes" ... it is easy to inter-twine them ... therefore confusing their "directional naming" ...
I was just trying to help Jesse solve the "mystery"
Jesse ... as you can see ... if you "track" a "specific Pseudo box" ... the naming follows the same pattern as on the C6 whole step boxes.
You guys gotta take it easy on me ... I did this stuff 20 yrs ago (and a "foggy" 20 yrs its been) and I can't even "play" a spanish guitar.
I just like number theory [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 24 May 2003 at 04:25 PM.] |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 24 May 2003 11:56 am
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Rick, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to as a point of reference with this statement "as you can see...if you "track" a "specific Pseudo Box"...the naming follows the same pattern as on the C6 whole step Boxes".
Are you referring to "Rick's modal boxes for C6 steel" as the "specific Pseudo Box"? If the answer is yes, then I have to clarify that the order of the "naming" may be the same (which I have always agreed with)... but (Denny's shared/fret modal box's) and your (Rick's connected "Pseudo" modal boxes") are going in opposite directions on the neck (up and down the frets) and yours utilizes different root names for each of your "Pseudo" modal boxes(up and down the neck) while Denny's connected modal boxes all have the same root note (up and down the neck). That is what I am investigating to see if there are some hidden approaches/perspectives that I can exploit while jamming on the steel. Please correct me if I am not correct with what you were saying O.K? Thanks... [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 01:00 PM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 24 May 2003 1:05 pm
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I was referring to these:
C Ionian - Spanish tuning
9 7 3
10 2 5 1 4 6 2
11
12 3 6 2 5 7 3
13 4 1 4
C Dorian - Spanish Tuning
7 6 2
8 1 4 7b 3b 5 1
9
10 2 5 1 4 6 2
11 3b 7b 3b
I call them pseudo boxes because the tabs screw up the geometry .. ha, ha (Actually they are two dimensional rectangles  )
Notice that they travel in the same direction and are named just like the C6 boxes...
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 24 May 2003 at 04:59 PM.] |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 24 May 2003 1:33 pm
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Guitar players do call them boxes, and would use C ionian at the 8th fret over D dorian at the 10th fret. The reason for this is the "1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th note of any mode spells a chord" it's easier to outline the harmony of the moment this way, without giving it to much thought. Guitar players for the most part use the low E string or A string for the root notes found in their modal boxes. We do substitute modes with a different root name over the first choice root mode sometimes. I.E. I will substitute B phyrgian over D9 (4 chord/6th measure) in a "Key of A blues, 12 bar progression" to get back to the 1 chord at the 7th measure. It just lays out real jazzy and gives some unexpected tension which resolves back at the 1 chord.
*I notice your dorian box travels in the same direction, fret wise as a guitar, opposite of a C6 box direction, but both the guitar and the steel maintain the same order of modal names. The reverse mirror effect.
So I guess you are agreeing with me? Thanks...[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 03:10 PM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 24 May 2003 4:14 pm
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This thread has gone way, way over my head in the mathematical realm of things. but I'm really enjoying looking up in wonder.
Speaking only personally, I can't process the charts the way you're writing them. I actually need to draw out the boxes and put little dots on a facsimile drawing of the fretboard. Oh well, Tal Farlow visualized the fretboard the same way and he was pretty good! |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 24 May 2003 4:20 pm
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Rick, I agree I'm getting moded out too. I understand the math of how what your doing works, but a working guitar player would never play D dorian when the rest of the band is playing C ionian (ii-V-I). Your way is not practical for a working guitar player, the instrument hasn't evolved that way as a good way to look at it nor has theory. But your math is right for what your saying, however inverted it is and I am not sure how you are using this stuff in a progression. I again say I am not denying that your right.
But I do have this one question for you before we stop. *What would happen to your perspective if you played Bb Ionian at the 6th fret spanish guitar and C dorian at the 8th fret spanish guitar? Those intervals are also connected up and down the neck in uneven boxes and the equvilant on C6 steel(Denny's boxes) is done on just 3 frets.
Any theory book out there discribes modes as being based on some major scale that goes up in pitch. Denny's C6 dorian box has lower tones in it than does his C6 ionian box even with the same root note if you just stay in his connected box?
.........<....down pitch..up pitch.....>.....
Spanish guitar neck.....Ionian,Dorian,Phyr...
C6 Steel....Phyr,Dorian,Ionian...............
I have laid the two necks even with each other at the ionian fret for both instruments, with the nuts of both instruments pointed in the same direction. The order of the spanish guitars "modal names" goes up in direction, while the order of the C6 steel "modal names" goes down in direction. Spanish towards the bridge, C6 steel towards the nut to say the same thing. I am disregarding the root note and pitches and only looking at the order of the modal names themselves. *I have edited the word pitch out of this post because I realize I'm not talking about pitch and it is confusing the issue.[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 27 May 2003 at 07:12 AM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 24 May 2003 6:28 pm
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Speak for yourself when it comes to valid analysis. I can make valid music with the relationships I'm seeing based on my ear first and based on accepted theory concepts and approaches second. In the end that's what makes it valid. We are just talking about two different things I think. Sorry we got so frustrated with each other, no hard feelings bro.
P.S. I did say the spanish guitar boxes that most guitar players used were uneven boxes? But these uneven boxes line up with each other perfectly from box to box on guitar.
I don't have a problem with the last part of what your saying, it's correct for what your wanting to see. *But I am and have been comparing Denny's perfectly even C6 boxes and the guitars perfectly uneven box's. I'm glad I don't know the math at this point, cause I have no problem comparing the two types of boxes and making sense of what I'm seeing as far as musical approaches.
*As I said up above, I'm not looking at the roots or pitches as a whole, I'm looking at the modal names alone and there direction of movement relative to the nut and the bridge of each instrument. You as yet, have not done this? You keep going over something I am not in disagreement with?
[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 25 May 2003 at 06:30 PM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 24 May 2003 6:50 pm
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| Quote: |
| Speak for yourself when it comes to valid analysis |
Too many hours in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics courses (taking and teaching them) I quess ...
| Quote: |
| I'm not looking at the roots, I'm looking at the modal names alone and there direction of movement relative to the nut and the bridge of each instrument. You as yet, have not done this? |
Thats the problem ... you must have a common point of reference to compare the spanish to C6 tunings. ...
Either keep the Root on the Low strings of both spanish and C6 tunings and compare the names/movement ...
OR ...
keep the same "fingering" on the spanish guitar (as with the bar on steel) and track its name/movement.
Either way, it will show you that they are indeed moving and named the same.
Not only have I addressed this .. I gave charts for each.[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 May 2003 at 10:01 AM.] |
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2 5 1 4 6 2