C6th lap steel modal theory site

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 22 May 2003 5:25 am

Terry,

THANKS for the kind words. You bet; The discussions here is what puts it all together; And I can't imagine a better group for the discussions.

Actually all this stuff from my end is about 80% along the way to publishing some larnin thangs. It's discussions and feedback such as this forum that will refine the work by confirming what is easy to grasp and work on those parts that prove more difficult. The whole idea is to clear up the confusion of modes and substitution which really are the amazingly simple basis for most of what we play on our half of the planet.

By the time we finish our explorations here, we will all have probably gone through the whole nine yards the 5 times it takes for it to take root.

Thanks again for the very nice waves. And Mahalo for your kokua too Brah.

ALOHA,
DT!

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 22 May 2003 5:43 am

NOTICE: I have edited this posting to insert this notice for the benefit of Folks that might just be joining the forum. Rick had to go through some motions to get his modal navigation methods through my thick skull. I finally got it last night (May 21, '02). In replies & interrogation to Rick in trying to reach that point of understanding, I posted allot of stuff completely out of context with the very correct information Rick was explaining quite well, but my grey matter wasn't grasping. So I am editing some of it out tonight to remove any confusion with Rick's excellent contributions to the discussions. If I miss something that seems to the reader to be arguementive without the edited-out context, ...be assured that Rick's ideas are fully valid and just a different way to navigate modes on the Steel neck.

THANKS RICK

=============================================

Rick,

Thanks a Mil for the edit hi-lite/cut hint ! Why does the obvious escape me so easily (Duhhhh ... *drool*)

MY HOMEBASE METHOD IS THE SAME CONCEPT AS YOU ARE DOING ... I THINK ... AT LEAST IN MEASURING FROM A KNOWN ROOT, ... which is exactly what I use the Homebase for, but in a manner that folks not atuned to notes can still easily grasp. Indeed, the Homebase 6th chord IS located by it's root in the most common place we all know anyway (upscale, 2nd strang in the box). NOW, once we know where the Homebase would be for any root OR at any given time in a song, we can easily locate all the other modes FROM THE HOMEBASE AS "I" (EVEN THOUGH IT MIGHT NOT BE "I" IN THE SONG!) thusly: FROM THE HOMEBASE CHORD THOUGHT OF AS "I": Maj7 = V6. min7 = bIII6. dim = bV6. If anyone really needs to twist their brains with Phrygian and Lydian, they're equally easy to add to the inventory. Navigating this way also removes any and all need to even visualize the boxes template because we can go right to the placement via the roman numeral step equivilants said above. You don't have to count frets or anything, ... just know where I, IV and V are, which me thinks we all have a pretty good grip on already!

If you need to know where root for each box is, then here's the simplest way I have found to build a mental picture and wind up with a simple gouge (mantra as Jesse nicely puts it):

FINDING ROOT IN EACH MODE BOX:

Let's digest it first and then I'll jot out the mental gouge:

The strings that root occurs on in the boxes also moves upward 1 string for each of the Maj7 mode steps.

Starting with the Maj7 box; the root is on string 4 (on a 6 string steel) on the down-scale end of the box (and I automatically include the 3rd note lower harmony slant bar on the 6th string).

The next step up (step 2) in the mode step sequence is min7 (Dorian box) whose root is on string 3 right in the signature chord. AND VOILA ...it's also shared with the next step up (step 3) which is min7b6b9 (Phrygian box).

And the next step up (step 4) is the Lydian box whose root is on string 2 ...AND VOILA, it's shared with the next step up (step 5) dom7 (Mixolydian box) which is our Homebase reference ... where surely by now we know where the root is.

And the next step up (step 6) is min7b6 (Aolean box) whose root is on the 1st string right in the signature chord, which VOILA is shared with the next step up (step 7) half-dim (Locrian box).

Which provides us with easy number gouges: (step)1=(string)4. 2/3=3. 4/5=2. 6/7=1.

Now I don't know about you, but out of those groupings there is one in each group I use ALLOT while the other I hardly ever use, ...so memorizing root for the ones I use allot narrows it down to memorizing 4 root locations for the short interem period before it becomes quite natural with use anyway. So all I have to know about root is where it's located for Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian, and Aolean, ....and heck, I darn sure better know where root is in Mixolydian (our famous 6th chords) and Ionian (Maj7 box) by now ... which only leaves 2 to memorize ... Dorian=3rd string and Aolean=1st string! AND GUESS WHAT ... the only root in those 4 commonly used groups not co-located with the signature chord is Maj7 Ionian! ...the rest of them are right there on the darn signature fret!!!!!!! OK, let's all pull out our kazoos and buzz along while I repeat the verse 5 times: ... Root is on strings 3,4,5,6 for modes Maj7, min7, dom7, min7b6 respectively; and Maj7 is the only one in that group with root not on the signature chord fret. (The step-children modes not in that mantra have root opposite the signature chord fret).

In one hour's time with a pencil and paper, a person can draw the boxes with a large dot for root .... and have it licked. Another way of practicing / memorizing is to use the F6 box (it's conveniently located) and start at the Maj7 root and play the box's scale with a lower harmony up to the top of the box and back down ... THEN STOP. Now repeat that exercise 10 times. THAT is where the Maj7 root is. Now IN THE SAME BOX start on the Dorian root and play the box scale with a lower harmony up to the top to the box and back down as far as you can go ... AND STOP. Repeat 10 times. THAT is where Dorian root is FOR THAT BOX'S SCALE. Now IN THE SAME BOX start on the Phrygian root, and with a lower harmony play to the top of the box and back down as low as you can go. THAT is where Phrygian root is. Do the same thing for all the modes until you get the picture of where the roots are IN THE SAME BOX.

Now we know where the root notes are and can now move the box up and down the neck to place the box over what root we want to create a certain mode from.

The next message will discuss the several ways being bandered about to navigate the boxes around.

Akkkk ... there goes that burning rubber smell again!

ALOHA,
DT~[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 02:22 AM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 22 May 2003 5:47 am

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 22 May 2003 at 09:27 AM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 22 May 2003 7:00 am

I'll try and "decipher" my chart ... I did this one and various slant and tuning charts a few years after I started learnin' ... about 20 yrs ago.

<pre>
String 1&5 tonic ... "nut" = Locrian (7)
... "bridge" = Aeolian (6)

String 2&6 tonic ... "nut" = Myxolydian(5)
... "bridge" = Lydian (4)

String 3 tonic ... "nut" = Phyrigian (3)
... "bridge" = Dorian (2)

String 4 tonic ... "nut" = Dorian (2)
... "bridge" = Ionian (1)

</pre>

Some Modes of C (for example)
<pre>
Tonic (root) C note

String One - 8th fret
String Two - 0 fret and 12th Fret
String Three - 3rd fret
String Four - 5th Fret
</pre>
If I want a C Ionian scale ...

I'd go to the fret where my tonic C note is (string 4 / fret 5) and use the whole step box starting at the 5th fret and extending toward the bridge ... (your F6 to G6 box)

If I wanted a C Dorian scale ...

I'd go to the fret where my tonic C note is (string 4 / fret 5) and use the whole step box starting at the 5th fret and extending toward the nut ... (your F6 to Eb6 box)

*Idenical to the string 3 tonic "bridge box"

If I wanted a C Mixolydian Scale ...

I'd go to the fret where my tonic C note is (string 2 / fret 12) and use the whole step box starting at the 12th fret and extending toward the nut ... (your C6 to Bb6 box)

Granted ... you have to know all the notes on the fretboard .... but I was just trying to relate your teachings to what I have been doin' ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 May 2003 at 09:53 AM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 22 May 2003 7:07 am

Jess,

Regarding your:

The C6 non pedal steel is a trip in that if your a guitar player and play modes on the guitar neck in which the order of the modes go up in pitch/frets, the opposite is true of the steel which is like you are looking at the neck through a mirror reflection and it goes down in the order of the modes while the guitar and everything else goes up, and the connected steel modes going up and down the neck all have the same root note. This is some kind of crazy math one has to get used to. Heck, it sounds confusing to me just to read what I just wrote!

Read the entry I just posted to Rick regarding finding root notes. AT FIRST it does seem like the mode boxes are running the opposite direction of spanish geetar and sax; But they aren't. Take sax for instance. If you want to play a Dorian for a given root, ... then the root you're choosing is upscale 1 whole step on the 2nd step of Major7 step sequence of the Mother lode scale; BUT TO PLAY that Dorian, you go DOWN 1 whole step and play the bVIIMaj7 notes to get "I"Dorian notes! Same thing on fanger geetar: If you want to play G Dorian which is up from Mammy Ionian root, you go DOWN and play FMaj7 Ionian scale inventory! Which is the basis for my fanger geetar course on mode SCALE / substitution.

The same thing is happening on Steel. Take say "A" Aolean: It's only "A" Aolean in it's box because "C" Maj7 is in that same box! So it is THE MAJ7's in the boxes that are moving downward just like any other instrument!

Analyzing it, as Andy said, "is a bit daunting"; But using the template and jumping right into what's happening is a breeze (*he says after racking his brains for 3 years to get it where it is!*).

(Orchestra hit; Bass violas sustain).........

...........

ALOHA,
DT~

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 22 May 2003 7:48 am

Denny, Rick's chart reference to the nut or the bridge is telling you which side the modal box extends from the root note. The nut is going down in "pitch direction" 2 frets and the bridge is going up in "pitch direction" 2 frets from the root note. The first line starts with reference to "string 1 and 5" meaning that is the string the root note is found on for that mode. I'm using your reference orientation for grabbing the large useful chord voicing and a reference point for the dorian mode found 3 frets up from the dom7 tonic large chord voicing etc. I am using Rick's strictly root note reference point for Arps and interval locations found in a mode.

I have to tell ya, your stuff is right on point, but seems a little confusing to me as far as being able to easily remember some of it. I have both yours and Rick's reference point charts laid out on two facing sides of note book paper along with a C6 tuning master chromatic chart, a master Interval chart for each box and a shared fret/interval modal box connection chart in the key of C, which covers the whole neck up and down, two part harmony string slants, three part harmony string slants (split and reverse) and my C6 mantra for remembering which string has the root note on it for all 7 modes and which direction the extension box is found (2 frets up or 2 frets down), did I forget anyone?

This all fits on just 2 facing pages of note book paper (just barely) and is a very practical index, if you already understand modes, arpeggios, scales and intervals etc. These are vast subjects that need to be broken down for a novice wanting to use it all beyond just what their ear tells them sounds good. But the one thing I truly believe in is reducing the amount of info one has to memorize to use this information fully. In the past I would think I understood your approach fully only to find I wasn't seeing this angle or that angle. I am now on a roll thanks to you and it is very exciting. My western swing/country playing is going thru the roof now and I can use all the approaches I know for Jazz and blues and organize it on the neck of the steel much, much better. Keep up the good work, I will be one of the first to buy your book!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 May 2003 at 11:18 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 22 May 2003 8:08 am

Denny, we were posting at the same time, so I missed your recent post while I was writting my last one.

I do not like looking at modes by playing their "parent major scale" because you lose the reason why we play modes in the first place (the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th note of a mode spells a chord and helps to out line the harmony of the momment). The way you are looking at some of this I feel is missing what I just pointed out, even tho your way works too. What ever helps ya to know where those arpeggio notes are, will also allow a player to use "poly tonal substitution approaches", which in the end are just inversions to all of this and helps a player come up with colors you might not think about otherwise. I think your misunderstood what I was saying about the nature of the steel neck in that the "shared fret/interval modal box connection chart" I wrote out for myself shows that the steel has a different math than the guitar's same "shared fret/interval modal box connection chart". I feel this single fact will throw allot of guitar players off and make it all seem very complicated. Sides Dizzy and Bird were doing the same thing and studied together a great deal, but approached it from different directions in the end with the same goal in mind, dig? Luv ya man! [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 May 2003 at 01:36 PM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 22 May 2003 8:14 am

Rick,

Now ain't this a trip: It just occurred to me your mentioning dyslexia; Heck, I'm about half autistic. Where the pieces jump around for you and you still get a full picture, ... I can't see the darn picture until all or most of the pieces are in place!

Now all this time I've been trying to decipher the numbers at the end of each of your chart lines ... and after ALLOT of staring I STILL never saw that those numbers are just the Ionian step number ... rather than some fret navigation number as I thought and had been trying to decipher!!!!

YES, your root nav method is accomplishing the same thing in finding the box, and then applying the nut-bridge gouge for which way the box extends by rote memory. And it's fer darn sure that using that system for 20 years makes it easy use ... and now to see your method in my neck chart.

How did you memory gouge the signature chords that aren't co-located with the root note? And what did you envision in the box relative to the rest of the neck once you got there? I'm fishing for some of your relative mental graphics that relates the modes along the neck to each other, that I can't see simply by knowing where the root note is and a box extending up or down scale from it by rote memory. For instance, how did you determine which end of the box had the signature chord and which end had the other extensions ... and what did you mentally call the difference? Did you perceive them simply as boxes in which the differnet modal scales existed? Did your system ring the bell that CMaj7 and G6 were the same box and same scale? What more in the box could you gather from that system?

'preciate it bunches.

ALOHA,
DT~

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 22 May 2003 9:12 am

I usually use the whole step boxes in conjunction with the first string Tonic.

For the same C modes (octave type "runs")

For the C Ionian ... 1st string/8th fret ... I will drop to the 7th fret and then maneuver to the 4th string/5th fret (using the F6/G6 box).

For the C Dorian ... 1st string/8th fret ... I will drop to the 6th fret (7b), then to the 5th fret and then maneuver the 3rd string/3rd fret (using the Eb6/F6 box)

For the C Mixolydian ... 1st string/8th fret ... I will go up to the 10th fret(2), and then maneuver to the 6th string/12th fret (using the Bb6/C6).

As far as other "mental pictures" ... Since you asked

In my mind I see the fretboard three ways ...

First (and formost)- as a series of slants ...
<pre>
String 1-2 reverse slants,
String 1-4 reverse slants,
String 2-3 forward slants,
String 2-5 forward slants.
String 1,2,3 forward slants
String 1,2,3 split string slants
String 1,2,4 split string slants
String 2,3,4 split string slants
String 2,3,5 split string slants
String 2,4,5 reverse slants
</pre>
Basically 2/3 part harmony ... up and down the neck ...

Second - As a "running Major scale" ...

Any string, fret, direction ... all the "pockets" and their overlapping sequences.

Third - As the Whole-Step Mode boxes...

Basically the Dorian and Mixolydian ... "trying" to improvise a little.

I have VERY little musical ability ... so I was trying (back then and now) to figure out mathematically what everyone else already knew.

Now if I could just be "Musical"

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 May 2003 at 10:36 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 22 May 2003 9:32 am

Rick, the slant thing is cool, same as Denny's. I really like string 5 and 2 forward slants. I don't think everyone knows how to articulate this stuff like you and Denny have, which helps to reveal the deep Kung fu of non pedal steel without having to play for many many years and maybe only picking up bits and pieces if your lucky. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 May 2003 at 12:51 PM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 22 May 2003 9:58 am

In my way of thinkin' ... I figured since classic harmony ...

<pre>
I (1,3,5),
IIm (2,4,6),
IIIm (3,5,7),
IV (4,6,1),
V7 (5,7,2,4),
VIm (6,1,3),
VIIdim (7,2,4)
</pre>
... was built on the major scale of the tonic note... I'd better be able to go from any one point (string/fret) to another point ANYWHERE on the fretboard (within that key).

I tried to memorize (back when) the "Minor running scales" but settled on a few classic pockets and the Dorian Mode.

I rely on my slant positions more than anything ... I just try to play the melody and throw in the appropriate harmony notes.

I worked alot on the scale and mode stuff when JB said my renditions were PREDICTABLE and to ADD fills to the "empty spaces" ... although I'm still partial to holding a note and vibrato-ing it.

Just relaying my own "Adventures in Paradise".

------------------

www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 May 2003 at 11:05 AM.]

Terry Farmer · Post by **Terry Farmer** » 22 May 2003 11:13 am

I think I've spotted another common thread here. Denny recommends Jerry Byrd's instruction on his website. It appears Rick and Jesse have already been through it. I ordered the course from Scotty two days ago. I'm committed. Or should be committed, or was but got out, or something.
Viva C6.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 May 2003 1:36 pm

Jesse,is there a chance you could scan and post your notebook pages you mentioned above.

For all us dyslexic types.
I have been a bit slow and not contributing to this discussion I am following VERY intently because of the amount of dense text involved.

I have to read constantly to keep it at bay. I did outward bound in feb '73 and read nothing for 30 days.. I came back and realized I had trouble with the newspaper for a week or two.
Never again will I not read something constantly. It really has been hell learning french because of it.

If I read music regularly it stays up at level, but miss a week or two and it just crashes. That's one reason I play the classical music thing, it keeps me reading.

So the visual things, such as a your notebook would be as much help as Denny's Charts on his site. sure helps.

Denny maybe that near autism you semi jokingly noted above made you a true savant at seeing this stuff so clearly.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 22 May 2003 5:50 pm

David, I have already posted the information that you are asking for thru out this thread. I would suggest printing Denny's Modal site and all of the post's on this thread from Denny, Rick and myself. If there is something in one of my post's or the other guy's post that you don't understand, we are all happy to answer any one's questions. I printed everything found on Denny's site awhile ago and it helped allot. But I would say you know enough about music theory to write out additional charts for a 2 page index like I described up above for it's easy reach on info. This thread is like a "Think Tank" where we get to bounce questions and ideas off of each other, it's a great way to study and advance. Now get out that pen and paper and start writting my friend. We are all here to help!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 May 2003 at 07:32 PM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 22 May 2003 6:20 pm

For instance, how did you determine which end of the box had the signature chord and which end had the other extensions

The first thing I ever did was memorize the straight bar locations of the major and minor chords (including 2 note intervals and their parent chord/chords) ... so I already knew where they were when I started lookin' at modes.

and what did you mentally call the difference?

Companion notes ... stop laughing

Did you perceive them simply as boxes in which the differnet modal scales existed?

I knew what notes they were (by number) ... but to be honest ... when I go and use these whole step boxes ... my goal is to get to 'em and then flounder around tryin' to play fast like a lead guitar player. I feel safe in a box

Did your system ring the bell that CMaj7 and G6 were the same box and same scale?

Yes. I had made a set of these charts for each note and compared them to one another. Thats when I first started grasping the whole church mode business.

What more in the box could you gather from that system?

The coolest thing that I learned was how some modes share half their notes with another mode.

The Ionian, Dorian and Phyrigian of C for example ... are all kinda connected:

<pre>

Fret Strings (6 to 1)

1) 2b 4 6b 7b 2b 4
}Phyrigian
3) 3b 5 7b 1 3b 5
} Dorian
5) 4 6 1 2 4 6
} Ionian
7) 5 7 2 3 5 7
</pre>

So the notes on fret 3 are shared by the Phyrigian and the Dorian .... And the notes on fret 5 are shared by the Dorian and Ionian

The Locrian, Aeolian, Mixolydian, and Lydian of C are also "share happy"....

<pre>

6) 5b 7b 2b 3b 5b 7b
}Locrian

6b 1 3b 4 6b 1
} Aeolian
10) 7b 2 4 5 7b 2
} Mixolydian
12) 1 3 5 6 1 3
} Lydian
14) 2 4# 6 7 2 4#
</pre>

I also thought it was neat how they were grouped:

Odd Frets (for C modes):
Ionian ... Dorian ... Phyrigian

Even Frets (for C modes):
Lydian ... Mixolydian ... Aeolian ... Locrian
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 May 2003 at 08:27 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 22 May 2003 7:46 pm

Rick, that is the same observation I posted on page 2 at 19 may 2003 at 1:44pm, only I didn't notice the odd/even mode/fret relationship. I call this chart the "shared fret/interval modal box connections". This is what I was talking about, that it's like looking at the mirror reflection of how a guitars neck and most other instruments go up in pitch as the modes go up, but the mirror effect puts the steel neck in reverse?. On non pedal C6 your mode names are going down in their order as their names change, in the exact but opposite order as a guitar or bass? And the steel modes that are connected and share common frets/intervals that go up or down with different names, always have the same root? On guitar and bass, the modes that are connected up or down with different names follow the root notes of a major key and only change if you change keys. What kind of math produces this weird relationship of theory? I think there is a secret to be found between the two math formulas that produce this effect, but I don't know what they are. Just a funny feeling that there is something heavy to understand why this is?

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 May 2003 at 08:49 PM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 22 May 2003 8:17 pm

I'm not much of a spanish guitar player .. so I just went over to the "Chord House" site and watched that tunin' churn out the modes. I can't see any difference in the way that they move ...

I did notice that there were a few "psuedo" whole step boxes ... no "true" ones.

The whole step boxes for spanish tunin' do not furnish ALL the notes of a mode ... you have to go outside the box to grab some ...

The closer intervals that C6 tunin' employs vs. the larger intervals of spanish tunin' explain the "steppin' out of the box" ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 May 2003 at 06:14 AM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 23 May 2003 1:03 am

Hey Dave,

Jesse was right-awn with the "do it yourself" suggestion FOR VERY GOOD REASON: Writing out your own neck and interval charts and similarly digesting anything else that comes to mind, works WONDERS. I think the reason for that is two-fold: (1) Tacit hand involvement is well recognized in teaching academics ... and the more difficult it is for a person (like me) to learn, the more beneficial tacit exercise is. I have a 6 year old son who is quite Asperger, a form of autism; And tacit exercises with him makes a ton of difference between that and "conventional" mere reading absorbtion. And (2) I think the slower absorbtion rate of having to think before, during and in final confirmation / editing what you've done, serves the repetition absorbtion technique that is even older than tacit techniques. And as a matter of fact, if you target your work to be as perfect as possible in the end, it will most likely be of a quality that will help many others, particularly those who think similarly.

Funny but relative story: I am a retired airline pilot. In my first simulator ride in transition from propeller to jet airliners about 15 years ago, it was quite obvious that my partner trainee and I were gonna need some work on proceedures because things happen incredibly allot faster in a jet than a prop plane. It's the dead of winter in St. Louis with 2 feet of fresh snow on the ground when we got out of that first night in the terror box (sim.). So the instructor tells us that when we get back to the hotel he wants us to go out into a large field behind the hotel and walk out our entire flight training profile in the snow ... and make all of our proceedure cockpit call-outs out-loud to each other. OK, we're being punished I thought. But by jove, after walking the same paths we'd been stamping in the snow for about 4 hours looking like two people ready for straight jackets, things started coming very easy. Amazingly easy. The next night was the second of 5 nights allowed to pass the tests in the terror box. At the end of the next night the instructor said we were both ready for the checkride the next night which we passed with no problems. We 3 then had 2 whole additional nights to just have fun in the box inventing what-if scenarios to try. After the checkride the Instructor explained that the more tacit deliberance a person can put into a learning objective, the better the results will be over simply reading and writing.

The floor around my desk and computer here is still strewn with piles of wadded up paper from trying to reconcile my misconception of Rick's mode nav system ! The cat's having a ball in it !

ALOHA,
DT~[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 04:09 AM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 23 May 2003 3:11 am

Yee-Haaaaa Rick,

After stumbling all over my own surgical hose for 2 days, I finally found the self-induced misconception. You're absolutely right; Your method produces the same reslults ... and would work well for anyone who knew the notes of every position on the neck fluently and could operate purely on a notes basis.

I also find all your concepts congruent with my system. My system is a graphic map where yours is specific note and fret based ... the best I can tell. How 'bout you?

THANKS for the patience and great info.

ALOHA,
DT~

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 23 May 2003 3:14 am

Jess,

Regarding your:

I have to tell ya, your stuff is right on point, but seems a little confusing to me as far as being able to easily remember some of it.

When you say "stuff" hard to remember, we have to realize that the cornucopia we've been discussing IS hard to remember; No ...downright complex and confusing

if a person is not up on the way any other person looks at it all. For instance, ...I probably spent 4 hours total trying to reconcile what Rick was presenting very clearly and simply ... but it was 1 small self induced misconception that had me "at the hardware store looking for the groceries"!

Shootz, the things we've been discussing isn't even necessary for a Player to jump right in and use the system with even the most basic understanding of music theory. THAT'S WHY I developed the system, ...so that all the discussions we've been having is not necessary to get the cream from the milk. Now of course curious minds like ours are going to want to disect it ... and enjoy doing so ... which is GREAT

; But again, having it simply laid out in a map format that Steelers are familiar with makes it ALLOT easier to disect than having to sort it all out of the zillions of mostly unsuccesful ways mainstream adademia has tried to present it for a long time.

So my next posting here will be a recap of the very simple nav method.

ALOHA,
DT~

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 23 May 2003 3:17 am

RECAPPING SOME BASICS FROM OUR DEEP DICSCUSSIONS, for folks that might desire same:

There is a chart you can open and keep open for reference.

Steel Guitar almost entirely requires a Player to choose his/her notes from what is present under the bar at any given time. Using a modal substitution system requires note selection because it usually provides more notes than the kind of chord or passage a Player desires. But a modal system gives a player notes on all 6 strings under his/her bar to choose from to be able to play the vast majority of chords and scales used in popular music. The modal / substitution system is indeed the very way we get the vast majority of chords and scales we desire on Steel.

The 4 most commonly used mode scales and chords are:

The 6th chord. We all know how to make them simply by moving the C6 tuning up and down the neck with the bar.

If we want to play IMaj7 chord, we do so by playing V6 chord; (ie. if you want to play CMaj7, then play G6).

If we want to play Imin7 chord, we do so by playing bIII6 chord; (ie. if you want to play Cmin7, then play Eb6).

If we want to play Idim chord, we do so by playing bV6 chord; (ie. if you want to play Cdim, then play Gb6).

Once we learn those simple 3 substitution positions, we can also play their scales right there with the chords by:

The remaining notes of the MAJOR chords' scale is 2 frets DOWN from the Major chords.

The remaining notes of the MINOR chords' scale is 2 frets UP from the minor chords.

The more exotic modes for anyone who might need them:

If we want the Aeolean Imin7b6 chord, it is found at bVI6 with same rules as said above about it's scale.

If we want the Phyrigian Imin7b6b9 chord, it is found at bII6 with same rules as said above about it's scale.

If we want the Lydian I#4 chord, it is found at the same place as I6 with the same rules said above about it's scale.

---------------------------------------------

ALOHA,
DT~

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 23 May 2003 3:33 am

this is either the work of a genius or a madman - maybe both

And just think, it all began with this quote by Andy Volk. This has been, and is a wonderful thread.

Thanks to all.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 23 May 2003 7:12 am

Thanks Denny, yet another quick point of referrence to squeeze on to my two page index on C6 theory info i.e,

Denny's large chord grip reference points:

Imaj7 = V6 = Cmaj7/G7 = 7th fret = Ionian = down ext box = non root chord grip

Imin7 = bIII6 = Cmin7/Eb6 = 3rd fret = Dorian = up ext box = root note in the chord grip

Imin7b5 = bV6 = C 1/2dim/Gb6 = 6th fret = Locrian = up ext box = non root chord grip

Imin7b6 = bVI6 = Cmin7b6/Ab6 = 8th fret = Aolean = up ext box = root note in the chord grip

Imin7b6b9 = bII6 = Cmin7b6b9/Db6 = 1st fret = Phrygian = up ext box = non root chord grip

Imaj7+4 = I6 = Cmaj7+4/D6 = 2nd fret = Lydian = down ext box = non root chord grip

Idom7 = I6 = Cdom7/C6 = open/12th fret = Mixolydian = down ext box = root note in the chord grip

*Denny your last post on lydian's reference point did not go along with you modal site large chord grip. This chart I made is like your site as far as the first choice chord grips.

*Remember, don't get confused by the "large chord grip" fret location(which sometimes has no root note in the chord grip) and the purely "root note chord grip" location(which is concerned with where the root note/fret# for a modal box is).

I use both location points of reference to get around.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 May 2003 at 07:12 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 23 May 2003 8:46 am

Rick, let me explain my modal mirror reflection question between a guitars neck and our C6 neck. If you take Santana's "Evil Ways" main chord vamp on the solo (Gmin to C), you would notice Carlos starts on G dorian at the 3rd fret on his guitar with the root note on the low 6th string. As he solos over the vamp, he plays thru the modes for F major, starting with:
G dorian = 3rd fret/6th string root note, then moving up to A phrygian = 5th fret/6th string root note, all the way up the neck. He is only playing the modes found in the key of F major along with the G minor/blues scale. You can see that the modes on a guitar neck used this way go up in pitch as their modal names change, as you play thru it's parent major scale, same way all modal theory is taught on all instruments. Modes from the same parent major scale are (all connected positions and share some of the same notes/fret positions) that connect the sibling modes to each other, as one long continuous system of notes that covers the whole neck for any key you want to play in.

The non pedal C6 steel necks modal names(Denny's modal box's) for F Major go down in pitch as the names follow the same parent major scale order which on the guitar go up in pitch with the same order of modal names. The "steels connected modes"(Denny's box's) also have the same root note for all of the different modal names for these different box's. This is hard to describe, so I wrote out a chart for guitar and one for C6 steel to compare.

Guitar/F major scale/root note low 6th string
G Dorian 3rd fret
A Phrygian 5th fret
Bb Lydian 6th fret
C Mixolydian 8th fret
D Aolean 10th fret
E Locrian 12th fret
F Ionian 13th/1st fret

C6 non pedal steel - C root note
C Dorian 17th to 15th fret
C Phrygian 15 to 13 fret
C Lydian 14 to 12 fret
C Mixolydian 12 to 10 fret
C Aolean 10 to 8 fret
C Locrian 8 to 6 fret
C Ionian 7 to 5 fret
C Dorian 5 to 3 fret
C Phrygian 3 to 1 fret
C Lydian 2 to 0 fret

See, See, See what I meannn!!!

The C modes on the steel all share and are connected by frets/intervals like the guitar modes are, up and down the neck, but the guitar modes for a key, change the root note of each mode as it goes thru it's parent major scale. The connected shared fret/interval/positions for "Denny's modal box's for the steel" have to keep the same root note for all the connections? The parent major scale only works in a 3 fret box on steel, weird!! I just wish I could explain it in easy to understand terms why this is, but I can't. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 07:29 AM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 23 May 2003 9:25 am

I think you may be "Mix-Matching" your boxes as you run through the F series of modes in the spanish tunin'. That tuning sets up for lots of whole step boxes ... but none are complete.

It seems like the same box is moving toward the bridge along with the root ... its really a different box entirely.

Take your same example (F mode series) ... and run it on the Chord House program TUNED to C6 ... watching the root on the low C.

It moves just the way the the spanish tuning root does .. but it is clear on the C6 that you get way out of your modal boxes as it runs toward the bridge.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 May 2003 at 11:58 AM.]