C6th lap steel modal theory site

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 18 Jan 2003 5:33 am

check this out: http://www.homestead.com/dennysguitars/lessonsindex1.html

Here's the key chart: http://www.homestead.com/dennysguitars/092901_5.html

this is either the work of a genius or a madman - maybe both. I've never seen advanced theory applied to lap steel before. The presentation is a bit daunting, but there is some excellent info here. I used some of these concepts already but didn't conceptualize them in the way the author presents. I've always kind of avoided the modal approach in the past as I can't seem to think that fast when the chords are flying by but this site makes me want to re-visit my approach.[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 18 January 2003 at 05:35 AM.][This message was edited by Andy Volk on 06 June 2003 at 06:59 PM.]

Ian McLatchie · Post by **Ian McLatchie** » 18 Jan 2003 6:22 am

Thanks for the link, Andy. I'll make some time this weekend to give it a careful reading.

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 18 Jan 2003 3:50 pm

Holy Moley that's a lot of stuff to filter.

Isn't the human brain amazing? Greats like Jerry Byrd and others (including many of us here on the forum) all have that complex stuff packed away in their brains. And they never had to read any of this literature!

It's sorta like the difference between making a peanut butter & jelly sandwich yourself and writing out all the programming necessary to teach a robot how to do it... or something.[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 18 January 2003 at 03:52 PM.]

Post by **Joey Ace** » 18 Jan 2003 4:24 pm

Holy Subsitutions, Batman!

I thought I knew theory, but this site makes me feel like a newbie!

I wonder if the author can play.
Maybe he's just a mathamatition.

I like this chart.[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 18 January 2003 at 04:25 PM.]

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 18 Jan 2003 7:01 pm

It sure looks to me like this guy's a player- at the very least he understands a lot of the theoretical connections within the C6th tuning. I hate to say it, but for you guys looking for non-pedal fluency, this kind of "headwork" is the real shortcut. Favorite quote: "for best results, read this lesson 5 times; That learning trick works wonders"...
Many thanks for this link, Andy!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 Jan 2003 7:14 am

I have been getting a lot out of reading and working with this material over the past few days. It's, by far, the best, practical explanation of modes I've ever come across. Stuff you can put to use immediately, regardless of what instrument you play.

Thanks much for posting the link, Andy.[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 21 January 2003 at 07:43 AM.]

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 21 Jan 2003 8:13 am

I agree, Jim. I'm kind of a mathematically challenged person and years of reading about modes just made my head hurt. I've been working with this info for a few days too and I'm beginning to see the light.

It's really a lot like learning to play your first pentatonic scales on the standard guitar where you have moveable box positions with notes that fit the chord progression. you then simply slide the box forms up and down the fret board based on the 1st or 6 string root of the key without worrying much about names of notes.

This system is the same thing using major scales. The real trick to making this work on lap steel is conceptual - knowing where to start the scales and move the template based on the chords in the key you're playing - that and adding inflections, passing tones, neighbor tones, etc. so it sounds like music instead of scales.

I applied Denny's chart to Blue Bossa in BIAB and in 5 minutes I was playing jazz and much more fluidly then I'd ever done before on lap steel. At least for me, a door has been unlocked. [This message was edited by Andy Volk on 21 January 2003 at 08:16 AM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 21 Jan 2003 3:22 pm

I posted some of this info on the forum a while ago and nearly got laughed off.

One of the modes that I hear some steelers use alot for dominant chords (Buddy Emmons uses this frequently to baffle his followers) is the Locrian mode of the melodic minor scale, which is used for altered chords.
For example, the C melodic minor scale is (in jazz, not classical) the same ascending as descending, and contains these notes:
C D Eb F G A B C

If you ran the Locrian mode, (B to B) it fits beautifully over B altered.
B C D Eb F G A B C

Another simple way to remember it is "To play the Locrian mode for altered chords, use the melodic minor a half step up from the root". e.g. G altered = Ab melodic minor. It's very cool.

-John
p.s. An altered chord contains the maximum number of alterations: b9 and #9, #11, b13. The most common place to play it on C6 is by using pedals 6&7 together. At the open neck it would give you B alt.
-J

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 21 Jan 2003 3:24 pm

By gosh, I found it.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20011227-1-012618.html

-John

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 Jan 2003 5:03 pm

I posted some of this info on the forum a while ago and nearly got laughed off.

Surely you jest, mon ami! A perusal of the link you just provided will attest that, contrary to being "laughed off", you in fact engendered one of the most interesting and valuable discussions ever held on the Forum. With the exception of one headache (and ya can't blame a guy for that!), EVERYONE participating was extremely respectful and involved in the conversation. Surely you don't recall this in your own mind as an occasion when you were "nearly laughed off"!!

Byron Walcher · Post by **Byron Walcher** » 21 Jan 2003 5:42 pm

OK I'm hooked but having trouble hearing this. For example, "summertime", G.Gershwin. If the head starts in Cminor, third fret, wouldn't the substitution be the BdMaj7 mode at the 5th fret? If not why not?
Thanks,
Byron

------------------
Lashley Legrande D10 8x7,Emmons Legrande 8x7, Sierra Lap-Top, Webb Amps

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 21 Jan 2003 6:45 pm

Hehe... Jim, actually the laughter was
confined to another parallel thread which
I didn't bother to search for. You've
probably noticed it didn't make me take my
mitt and go home though

For Byron
<pre>
Summertime in C minor
C-7
D 1--------3---3-----------
C 2--3---3-------3---------
A 3----3-----3-----3-------
G 4------------------3-----
E 5------------------------
C 6---------------------3--

Bb major scale
(I know this isn't the first pattern you
might choose for it, but it illustrates the point.)

1----------3---------
2------------3--5--6-
3------2--3----------
4----3---------------
5--3-----------------
6--------------------

So, using the same notes, but instead going
from C to C (Dorian mode) for C minor 7th:

1----------3-------------
2------------3--5--6--8--
3----2--3----------------
4--3---------------------
5------------------------
6------------------------

That scale contains every note in the
melody of Summertime.
Of course, you might sooner use the scale pattern here;
1-----------5--------
2-------------5-6-8--
3---------5----------
4----5-6-------------
5--5-----------------
6--------------------
Or starting on the 6th string on the 8th fret, wherever you like.

.................
With regard to the altered chord/scale
reference I made before;
I stole this lick from Buddy Emmons' ride
on "When you and I were young Maggie" on
the Bell Cove video... It uses the altered
scale (locrian mode of the melodic minor)
to make the I chord (E) into an altered
chord before moving to the IV chord (A)...

pickup E E alt A
1-------|----------|---11~10-----------|--
2-------|----------|-------------------|--
3-------|-16-------|-------------------|--
4----16-|-16----16-|---------11~10-----|--
5-16----|----16----|-9-------------10--|-9
6-------|-16-------|-------------------|--
..3...4...1.2.3...4..1.2...3.....4.......1.

Look at the point E turns into E Alt.

The melodic minor scale a half-step up from
E is F mel. minor, so:

F melodic minor scale
1-------------10------------
2----------------10-11--13--
3----------10---------------
4----10-11------------------
5-10------------------------
6---------------------------

</pre>
Notice the note which would precede the first note in the scale (if you were coming
up from the octave below) would be E, 5th string, 9th fret. so...
Whaddaya know, all Buddy's notes, all lined up like ducks at the fountain.

I know it seems like a head twister, but it's true. Alot of the modes are less
useful, but some are very cool, like the
altered mode above.
-John
With apologies to George Gershwin[This message was edited by John Steele on 21 January 2003 at 06:50 PM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 21 Jan 2003 7:02 pm

Oh, and to Jim and to our friend Gene Jones, who may have thought I was refering to his welcome comic relief,
When I first started to study this stuff, it gave me a headache too ! It still does sometimes. Ha...
-John

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 21 Jan 2003 11:13 pm

The 7th mode of melodic minor is called the "super locrian" or "altered scale". I use it on e.g. "E7+9 or E7b9". You get an instant out side sound.

Denny Turner is a right on teacher and a very cool guy. One thing to understand about modes is that they are inversions of their parent major scale. The reason we use modes instead of just a major scale where all of the same notes are found that you would need, is due to the fact that the first, third, fifth and seventh note of any mode spells a specific chord and thus helps to outline the harmony of the moment. This is why jazz guys speak of the "chord/scale". A mode is just a chord with all of it's upper extensions laid out like a scale.

One of the things about Denny's approach I find helpful is the fact that C6 is really the Dom. 7/Mixolydian position and it is also the same notes of a Major 7th chord a perfect fourth above the root of the C6 or C7 chord, which would be F major 7. This is what Denny means when he talks about the G6 chord being a substitute for the C major 7 or major 9 chord, used alot in Hawaiian music. The extensions found two frets up or down relative to the quality of the chord you are using is completely correct. Denny sent me some charts last Xmas not found on his site and it all makes perfect sense. Being able to play jazz makes you a better western swing player for sure.

Denny uses the 1, 4, 5 chord progression to demonstrate some of the practical ways of using his approach. Lets say we are in the key of E, fourth fret on a C6 tuning. The E6 chord is also E7 or E9 when you go down two frets to grab the extensions of the Dom. chord. When the progression changes to the fourth chord (A), you can stay on the one chord (E6) because it's notes spell a non root A major 7 or 9 chord. A non root chord means in this case, the A note is missing. This is O.K. because the rest of the band will fill in the A note sound. When the chord progression changes to the fifth chord (B), all you have to do is go up two frets to F#6, which is the same notes as B major 7 or 9. Denny says this is much like the E, A and B chords one finds down at the nut on a guitar.

The fun starts to happen when you use slants to go up and down the neck to connect to A6 (9th fret) and B6 (11th fret) using the extensions two frets down on these chords to grab Dom 7th sounds. When the progression goes back to the one chord (E), you can stay on the B6 chord (11th fret) to get an E major 7 or 9 chord. It's the perfect 4th substitution again. On this type of E major 7 or 9 chord (11th fret) you can go up or down two frets and find great double string harmonies. What's cool about this approach is that you are working with about a 5 fret reach between everything. The dim. and aolean scale (natural minor) are right there as well at the top of the reach.
[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 January 2003 at 08:24 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 22 Jan 2003 7:47 am

The 7th mode of melodic minor is called the "super locrian" or "altered scale". I use it on e.g. "E7+9 or E7b9". You get an instant out side sound.

Jesse, which melodic minor's super locrian mode do you use over an E7+9 or E7b9? In other words, what's the root of the melodic minor you're placing there? (not the start of the 7th mode per se, just to be clear).
Thanks,
jc

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 22 Jan 2003 8:32 am

E super locrian = 7th mode of melodic minor, against an altered E Dom, would start on E (E F G Ab Bb C D), this is also called the diminished whole tone scale. You can look at it as F melodic minor scale against a E7#9. Also, I added some more information on my post about Denny.[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 January 2003 at 08:39 AM.]

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 22 Jan 2003 2:33 pm

Jim, play the F melodic minor scale over the E altered dominant chord.

The trick is when you see or hear that V chord coming, play melodic minor a half step up from the V chord.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 22 Jan 2003 3:09 pm

The late jazz guitarist Emily Remler used that approach. She played jazz minor up a 1/2 step over the 5 chord if the progression was going HOME to the 1 chord. If it wasn't going to resolve to the 1, she'd play jazz minor up a 5th. The theory here being that if the chords will resolve to one you can add all kinds of tension over the 5 which is then released on the 1. I can understand this but I could never get my brain to put it into practice in an actual playing situation.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 22 Jan 2003 3:22 pm

Thanks guys. Now, is the "jazz minor" scale the same as the harmonic minor?

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 22 Jan 2003 4:51 pm

The harmonic minor is a different scale. Robin Ford likes to use it as do other jazz guys. I use the fifth mode of the harmonic minor, sometimes called the Gypsy minor and it really sounds it. Try playing D minor chord to A dom.7 in a flamenco kind of way. Solo on D harmonic minor, but start on the low A note and go up in pitch. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 January 2003 at 06:43 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 22 Jan 2003 8:25 pm

Cool. I'll try that. But then what is the "jazz minor" scale?

Ingo Mamczak · Post by **Ingo Mamczak** » 22 Jan 2003 8:51 pm

John,
" I posted some of this info on the forum a while ago and nearly got laughed off. "
I don't think anyone would dare try to laugh you off. I haven't been around much over the last couple of years but as always, it's a pleasure to read your posts.
Ingo.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 22 Jan 2003 10:28 pm

Jim, the jazz minor is just the melodic minor going up in pitch and same notes going down in pitch. In classical theory, the melodic minor is the same going up but turns into the natural minor coming down.[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 12:33 PM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 22 Jan 2003 11:36 pm

What Jesse said.
When I refer to the "melodic minor" (jazz minor) above, the scale is identical to the major scale except the third tone is flattened.. whether going up or down.
In classical theory it's different ascending than descending.
-John
Ingo, nice to see your name again !

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 23 Jan 2003 8:31 am

Me too. My post about playing melodic minor 1/2 step up from the V chord is really to play the "jazz minor".