The stages of learning a lick

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 10 May 2005 8:29 am

Hi folks,

I've noticed that, when learning a lick that is difficult for me, I go through these stages:

1. Can't play the lick

2. Can sometimes execute the lick cleanly while at home practicing

3. Can play the lick consistently while at home practicing but only sometimes in rehearsal

4. Can play the lick consistently in rehearsal but can only sometimes get it right at a gig

5. Can cleanly execute the lick in a gig situation --lick is learned

Do others go through a similar progression? It's kinda frustrating to feel like you know the lick perfectly well at home, only to go out and find that you don't have command of it in a live situation --it's still not "there" yet.

-Woodshedding in L.A.

[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 10 May 2005 at 09:30 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 May 2005 9:29 am

I think we all can relate..

My take is that it is not the learning but rather the executing.

Execution takes constant rehearsal time, playing it over and over and over until it becomes second nature and joins the AUTO PILOT family..

Another thing I have come to realize (like a rock falling on my head) is that a real true understanding of position playing is essential When you know where you are , where you are going and where you want to end up the road is much much smoother...

Learning phrases and similar phrases in multiple positions really opens up the whole deal..

t

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 10 May 2005 9:58 am

The thing about playing licks is, typically, it's not what you would normally play. It's what somebody else would have played and is part of their "comfort zone", rather than yours. I have about 1 lick on each neck that you can count on me playing ad infinitum.

One of the ways to learn a lick is to listen to the tone of the individual notes, which gives me an idea of which strings it was played on. And that also is an indication of where on the fretboard it happens. Keeping in mind that the idea for the player, is to be able to comfortably play the combination without having to do alot of acrobatics.

"5. Can cleanly execute the lick in a gig situation --lick is learned"

At some point, it becomes part of your repertoire, and as the saying goes, you make it your own.

David Spires · Post by **David Spires** » 10 May 2005 10:18 am

I am utterly amazed at how I can be in Stage #5, and shift back randomly through Stages 1 - 4.

I can sympathize. For me, I guess I looked at it simpler. It always seems like I am pushing against a wall, not going anywhere trying to incorporate something new. Then, one day - it's like you just push through it, and wonder what was so hard about it in the first place!

Like our Electric Guitarist said one night before going on stage, "Have you ever thought of how close you are to disaster at any point during the show?" (Closeness of the strings, frets, etc...)

Needless to say, the show that followed that comment was the worst of the year!

Keep pushing,

David Spires

Mark Herrick · Post by **Mark Herrick** » 10 May 2005 11:42 am

I thought they were:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Oh, wait, those are the five stages of grief...well, maybe they're the same thing...

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Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 10 May 2005 12:07 pm

David--now there's a real pal, messing with your head like that. That's funny.
Yeah, #5 is the one where you could have sworn you were there because #3 and #4 told you so. Until you yet again discover on the bandstand that your thumbpick would do far more good jammed up an orifice than picking at a string. Sometimes I lightly do some "little picking" (I call it) behind the singer, just teasing around with the lick that I intend nail, coming in strong with my ride. Dead solid perfect during the verse. Total clusterfork on the ride. Man, nerves ain't a pretty thing.
Mark--you forgot Dopey and Sneezy.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 10 May 2005 12:29 pm

There was a thread posting in the past year where, I believe it was Jim Palenscar, related the experience of hearing Mr. E. practice a lick over and over and over again (like as in for hours and hours) until he got it right, repeatedly. This is one of the most inspirational things I've ever read in this forum.

Does practice make you more likely to execute the lick cleanly, or less likely to screw it up? The two are not necessarily the same thing.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 10 May 2005 at 01:32 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 10 May 2005 12:34 pm

Until it happens with out thinking about it..
you ain't learned it.

Steel Mastery 101 ; Big E. School Of Music.

Best proved on the '77 Scotty's tape where Buddy,
on request, tries to explain what he played..
but has to think about it.... and think about it.. and... and then suddenly, DUH!

When he doesn't think about it, he plays it perfectly...
because he learned it so well,
it just comes out on cue.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 10 May 2005 at 01:35 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 10 May 2005 12:45 pm

I know I could play this thing right if I could just stop my head from thinkin'....

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 10 May 2005 5:29 pm

You have to "Be the lick"

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 10 May 2005 5:56 pm

Here's a tip on learning licks that worked for me years ago and sometimes I still do it when I want learn a difficult lick. Start at the 1st fret and slowly play the lick over like five times. Go to the 2nd fret and do the samething again. Repeat this all the way down to the 13th fret then reverse it and start going back a fret each time. Then finish at the 1st fret where you started. Sometimes you may want to close your eyes while your picking the strings if the lick is all done at one fret. When you get tired of one lick or run just go to another one. You'll notice it'll get easier. My hardest licks to learn are the C6th fast licks that BIG E plays. I still hadn't learned the right intro to Four Wheel Drive like he does it.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 May 2005 6:41 pm

Why Ricky Davis, was that a Caddyshack reference???

I think there is a #6. Use a piece of the new lick and incorporate it with other stuff you already play. Or play it backward. Or twist it around until you've beaten it into submission. Until you can play it 'ever whicha way', it won't be completely in your control. Buddy Emmons has several licks I've heard him play (what seems like) HUNDREDS of different variations on. A little creativity can turn one lick into 50. Or, more importantly, turn a lick into a PATTERN.

And, Dave, I know what you mean about being firmly on Square 5 and drift clean back to #1. A bad day or other personal baggage can decrease your level by several numbers.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 10 May 2005 10:29 pm

YEs It was Larry..ha....and "It's kinda hard to be the lick; with you talking like that"..ha..
Yes I'm an old caddyshack'er from the past. And that is super sound advice coming from Larry Bell by the way Folks.
Anyway; to add to this discussion in a NON-Mindless-babble kinda way> which is the way I think about it; and goes along with the thoughts of the great Larry Bell.
When I do try and learn a lick and eventually try to apply it to a song; if never really works out and here's why.
In learning the lick; you do go through a proceedure; but by time you get to where you can play the lick; say, with rehearsal; the texture of the song changes in live situations and the lick no longer has the aura originally applied; and that adds to the hesitation and under-confidence.
The song(s)played live; never has the feel and aura/texture as it does from/in a recording. I'm a firm believer in you have to be part of the song(s) when played at that moment. Heck there are many songs that I've recorded with artist on CD; then when I play that same song live with them; my way cool lick(s) that I recorded, just don't sound right or groove right or capture that same aura, in that live situation at that given time. I say; to relieve all pressure of oneself to play a lick that was planned; in a live situation; is to work on the lick; but also work on other variations of it or other ways around that section; and then when you do get in that situation live; you will be prepared and more confident in more ways than one; and that will also lead to you seeing that section and seeing/hearing what your going to play, right before that section comes up> "Imagery".
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 10 May 2005 at 11:32 PM.]

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 11 May 2005 6:42 am

These are great thoughts, guys. -GV

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 11 May 2005 8:14 am

Chas hit on something that really affects "lick-learning" for me- when it's something you just wouldn't have played. Sometimes it's a real revelation- opens up a whole new way of thinking- and sometimes it's just "well, I wouldn't have played that even if I could"! But I find it helps to try to listen to the whole of the player's approach throughout the song to try to tune into how he thinks and phrases. And then there are the "levers you don't have"... I've spent a large proportion of my bandstand and studio time playing original music, and while creating on the spot I don't think in terms of licks very much. So when covering someone else's playing, it still feels a little stilted and unnatural sometimes to be re-creating something from a totally different perspective. Definitely good for the chops though.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 11 May 2005 8:34 am

Lots of great ideas and advice here. One thing I would like to add is that if the lick is beyond your ability and you flub through it it is actually a detriment to your playing. Joe Wright has this idea that you need to train your hands from the bottom up that really addresses this issue. Joe's method of breaking everything down to its most basic form is a true evolution in pedalsteel teaching.

www.pedalsteel.com/

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Bob
intonation help

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 11 May 2005 9:16 am

creativity can turn one lick into 50

Larry, what are some of the ways you would take a single lick and turn it into many variations? If possible, an example or two would be nice. Thanks in advance. .. Jeff

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Jeff's Jazz

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 May 2005 7:05 pm

Sorry to take so long getting back to y'all
It's hard to know where to start describing this, but I'll try.

Lets take a simple starting point: a true Emmons cliche lick
It sounds like this
(all examples are E9 tuning and all soundbytes are mp3)
Buddy has more variations on this lick than you can shake a stick at. I'm not gonna give you his --
he has some of that in his courses. I'll give you some of mine as an example of how to take a really
cool idea from someone else and make it your own.
<pre>

1---------------------|---------------------------------|----
2---------------------|----------11-------7~~8----------|----
3------------9---10---|-11~~~~~--11-------7~~8---8------|----
4-10#~~~11#--9#--10#--|-11#~~11------------------8------|----
5-10##~~11##----------|-------------11##-------------8--|----
6---------------------|---------------------------------|----
count----2----3---4------1--------2--------3-----4--------

First thing I look for are ways to use it over chord progressions. This lick is built on a CMajor scale with a
'blue note' (minor 3rd) giving it color (2nd note in the 2nd measure). It is VERY chromatic, with not only the
minor/major 3rd but also dom/Maj7 (the 7~~~8 part). This makes it a cool 'chameleon lick' that can be used over
many different chords. As is, it works fine over most any usage of a CMajor.

MOD 1: One Measure Longer
Use the little major / minor idea again using the F lever. Stays on the C chord.
1---------------------|--------------------------------------|---------------------------------|----
2---------------------|----------11--------------------------|--11---------7~~8----------------|----
3------------9---10---|-11~~~~~--11--------11~~~~~---11~~~~~-|--11---------7~~8---8------------|----
4-10#~~~11#--9#--10#--|-11#~~11------------11#~~11---11#~~11-|--------------------8------------|----
5-10##~~11##----------|-------------11##---------------------|-------11##-------------8--------|----
6---------------------|--------------------------------------|---------------------------------|----
count----2----3---4------1--------2--------3----------4---------1----------2------3---------4
Click here to hear the mp3

MOD 2: Bridge to another pocket (Descending -- C at 8th fret / NP to C at 3rd fret / A+B)
1---------------------|------------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----------
2---------------------|----------11-------7~~8-------------|-----------------------------------|----------
3------------9---10---|-11~~~~~--11-------7~~8---8---------|-----------------------------------|----------
4-10#~~~11#--9#--10#--|-11#~~11------------------8----8~~~~|~~8---6~~~~--3~~~~-----------------|----------
5-10##~~11##----------|-------------11##--------------8##~~|~~8---6##~6--3#~~3-----------------|----------
6---------------------|------------------------------------|---------------------3#------------|----3#~~~~
7---------------------|------------------------------------|---------------------------3-------|----------
8---------------------|------------------------------------|-------------------------------3---|----------
9---------------------|------------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----------
10--------------------|------------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----3~~~~3##
count----2----3---4------1--------2--------3-----4------------1-------2------3---------4------------1-----
Click here to hear the mp3
Whatever you add, try to make it consistent with the feel of the lick. MOD 2 uses the minor third and navigates to
the A+B position from the NP position while staying on the I chord.

MOD3: Same idea, but descend differently with more chromatic feel
1---------------------|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----------
2---------------------|----------11-------7~~8----------|-----6~~~4-------------------------|----------
3------------9---10---|-11~~~~~--11-------7~~8---8----7~|~~6--6~~~4-------------------------|----------
4-10#~~~11#--9#--10#--|-11#~~11------------------8----7~|~~6----------3~~~~-----------------|----------
5-10##~~11##----------|-------------11##----------------|-------------3#~~3-----------------|----------
6---------------------|---------------------------------|---------------------3#------------|----3#~~~~
7---------------------|---------------------------------|---------------------------3-------|----------
8---------------------|---------------------------------|-------------------------------3---|----------
9---------------------|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----------
10--------------------|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----3~~~~3##
count----2----3---4------1--------2--------3-----4--------1-------2-------3---------4------------1-----
Click here to hear the mp3
MOD3a: Same idea, but GO TO THE V CHORD. (C C G)
1---------------------|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----------
2---------------------|----------11-------7~~8----------|-----6~~~4-------------------------|----------
3------------9---10---|-11~~~~~--11-------7~~8---8----7~|~~6--6~~~4-------------------------|----------
4-10#~~~11#--9#--10#--|-11#~~11------------------8----7~|~~6----------3~~~~-----------------|----------
5-10##~~11##----------|-------------11##----------------|-------------3#~~3-----------------|----------
6---------------------|---------------------------------|---------------------3#~~~~3-------|------~~~~
7---------------------|---------------------------------|-------------------------------3---|----------
8---------------------|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----3-----
count----2----3---4------1--------2--------3-----4--------1-------2-------3---------4------------1-----
Click here to hear the mp3
</pre>
These are just a few examples. Think of ones that
* go to the IV chord
* bridge up to the A+F and/or A+B position on the 15th fret
* fit in with other patterns or licks you know

The key is to make it YOURS

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 15 May 2005 at 09:20 AM to make tab font size smaller.][This message was edited by Larry Bell on 15 May 2005 at 09:28 AM.]

Mark Herrick · Post by **Mark Herrick** » 14 May 2005 3:46 pm

Larry,

I tried downloading your mp3 files so I could burn them to CD to use as a guide along with the tab you posted.

The mp3's will play in various programs (Windows Media Player, etc.) but I cannot copy them to a CD. I get an "Incomplete resource information" error.

Other mp3's I have downloaded from sites like Rebel & Ricky work fine.

Has anyone else tried this and had a problem?

(I realize it probably wasn't your intention to be providing lesson material, but playing the clips back from a CD is easier than using the computer.)

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 May 2005 5:30 am

Sorry you're having problems, Mark.

They are just mp3 files. No reason I can think of why they wouldn't burn onto a CD. Winamp is a free program that works great -- either from a CD or off the hard drive. It's actually faster from the hard drive for me.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 15 May 2005 5:56 am

This might be specific to my computer or monitor settings but that tab is a bit messed up looking---if anyone wants to make it read as Larry wrote it, highlight it, copy it, paste it into a text program (wordpad, for me) and change the font to Courier New and the font size to 8. Everything lines up just right.
If it looks perfect to you as is, then it's just my computer settings that are messed up.
Nice seminar, Larry.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 15 May 2005 8:28 am

Thanks Larry.

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Jeff's Jazz

Tom Stolaski · Post by **Tom Stolaski** » 24 May 2005 7:06 pm

I love that lick, and have been playing variations of it for years. Sometimes I have fun on the bandstand by seeing how long I can play it during a solo without repeating myself.
Larry you are sounding good as usual.

joe wright · Post by **joe wright** » 26 May 2005 5:56 pm

The learning curve is so difficult because you are trying to play "licks" with hands that are not prepared. You are learning the basics at the expense of the lick....joe

Jonathan Gregg · Post by **Jonathan Gregg** » 30 May 2005 2:03 pm

Larry Bell:
"I think there is a #6. Use a piece of the new lick and incorporate it with other stuff you already play."

Word.