producers "cutting up" my playing

Nate LaPointe · Post by **Nate LaPointe** » 12 May 2005 4:26 pm

I did a recording session on pedal steel today. At times throughout the session, either the producer or the artist would say things like "I'm sure we have enough options for that section now" or "we can crossfade that in the comp track."

Not that I'm against editing or punching, or that I neccessarily disagree with what they were saying, but sometimes I feel a bit strange about someone else putting my track together later. Maybe it's my instinct to take control in the studio. I usually have a pretty good idea of what they're looking for, and I know what I'm capable of, so to have some of that power taken away, I feel, I dunno, powerless I guess?

Does anyone else experience this? Does anyone else get this feeling?

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www.natelapointe.net

Lee Warren · Post by **Lee Warren** » 12 May 2005 6:09 pm

Hi Nate,
I think I understand your feelings.
I've found my self in both situations:
Either being the "edited" player, or having to make calls on "edits" of other players.

I think it ends up having to be about the tune, and what's going to give the best net result (regardless of our sometimes fragile artistic ego).
I've been there, and I didn't always like or understand it, but I usually came away learning something.

A "stream of consciousness" jam may not allow for, or need, edits.
A more structured song might require the editing of various instruments.

The producer should have a overview of what the song needs, and have the last word on what stays and what goes (or gets edited).
Their strength, in large part, lies in seeing beyond the individual vision.

It's a bitter pill at times, but all part of the process.

Just my 2 cents ...
Lee =)
[This message was edited by Lee Warren on 12 May 2005 at 07:18 PM.]

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 12 May 2005 6:12 pm

producer is THE man in the studio,he knows what he is looking for and you can either give it to him what he is asking from you or he`ll hire somebody else for the job.I knew some great pickers who couldn`t get a session work because of overplaying.

Db

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 12 May 2005 6:12 pm

I think that's how everybody does it nowadays, at least for overdubs.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 12 May 2005 7:02 pm

Join the club Nate.. they take your best, throw it in the crapper... often when you have layed down a bunch of out of tune junk, they turn it up and lay it all over the track. Other times, they'll take bits and pieces of good and bad and staple it together until THEY like it, even though YOU the guy that played it hates it. I'll NEVER understand producers.... bob

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 12 May 2005 7:09 pm

Simple...the producers consider it's their intellectual property and it is, since you've been paid for playing it for them and given them all rights to use it as they desire. What you played is theirs now and they can take your licks/fills/sounds that you played and can disassemble, reassemble or reconstruct in whatever order or fashion they think sounds best, or modifiy with any kind effects that may be the current style.

There's not a lot you can do about it unless it's your own money backing the recording, distribution and promotion.

<center>
Edited in the interest of National Security, World Peace, etc. etc. etc. <center>

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 May 2005 at 11:50 AM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 12 May 2005 8:03 pm

I look at it like I'm a short order cook. The customer comes in and wants eggs over easy. It doesn't matter how I like my eggs...

I just did a bunch of sessions where I get a disc with the basic tracks, I load it into ProTools and put my stuff on it. Basically, I play through most of the track (on the traditional stuff) anywhere that you would expect to hear a steel guitar. The producer/artist will cut out what he doesn't want.

For the pop thing, they wanted unusual sounds and "floating grind" on the track I was on as well as for the "interludes" between songs. I gave them the PTS file on cd with the original and my 8 or so stereo tracks underneath so they could mix them however they saw fit. I thought they all should be there in the mix (the artist never gets tired of hearing himself). The producer, who is getting paid $80K and points, only used 2 tracks. He's happy, I'm happy.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 13 May 2005 1:07 am

This is what happens these days, if the producer has ears, he will make a good story of your playing. if not.....

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Click on the pic!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 May 2005 1:56 am

It's a mindset that is required of the session musicians..play whats required..turn around and don't look back..they own it..they paid for it..The session producer, as we all know ,is thinking the BIG PICTURE...playing on sessions is only adding a dab of color to the whole portrait..even if it's the best playing we may have ever come up with in our own minds..

I get the feeling that the most successful session players are the ones who play, play well,and don't talk much....

t

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 13 May 2005 2:38 am

producer is THE man in the studio,he knows what he is looking for and you can either give it to him what he is asking from you or he`ll hire somebody else for the job

Absolutely right about that Damir.But that don't say they are always right.Dealt with this a couple of times and I have to say that most producers Think they know it all.Most of um never even used a pedal steel player in the studio.
But you are right when you say that they call the shots in the studio.

Ron

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 13 May 2005 6:10 am

Quote:

"Simple...the producers consider it their project since it's their money paying for it"

Actually, it is very rare when the producer is paying for the project, unless it is a production company deal. Producers are generally hired for the project, paid an advance against their future royalties on the project, and try and make the best possible record.

Quote:

"but they can't play the actual instruments themselves, so they hire musicians to furnish them with licks/fills/sounds that they can disassemble, reassemble or reconstruct in whatever order or fashion they think is cool, including modifiying with any kind oddball effects...they claim your playing as there own, as if they are the musicians playing... or should we refer to it as constructing... the song"

While a lot of this happens in certain genres of music, that's pretty far off base for country music...

Quote

"Since they're the ones in charge, there's not a lot you can do about it unless it's your own money backing the recording, distribution and promotion"

Well, you're right there, to a degree. When I hire a player for a session, I do expect to get what I and the artist want for the record. Of course, I hire musicians that I know are going to deliver what I am looking for, and always, always give them the first shot at coming up with something they feel works first

.

Oh yeah, my favorite producer quote is from John Boylan, who said "the producer is ALWAYS, or at least usually, partially right..."

[This message was edited by John Macy on 13 May 2005 at 07:13 AM.]

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 13 May 2005 6:26 am

Nate,

Don't sweat it, studios "comp" tracks all the time, most of my sessions are like this.

If they are paying you, bonus!

Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 May 2005 6:36 am

Doesn't really matter who owns the project -- unless it's an instrumental CD you're making on your own, it probably ISN'T YOU. That means, as others mentioned, your part really isn't YOURS. If you're not getting paid for it and you don't like what they're doing with it, DON'T DO IT AGAIN. After recording off and on for almost 40 years through 8 tracks going to 128 or more, and all the new digital stuff, I can tell you that the only project where you'll control what you do is one you fund, produce, and mix yourself. Otherwise, it's someone else's property that you have no rights to. And if you don't like the rules they'll find someone who is happy to go by them. In some ways it's sad, but it's true.

The way that works best for me is to be as non-confrontational as possible. Share your ideas only when it's appropriate. Realize that creative decisions are the realm of the producer and your part will be used as they see fit, AND it probably WON'T be done exactly like you would.

As soon as it becomes a pi$$ing contest, they producer will win. So it's best for it not to come to that. Just enjoy the experience. It's like no other -- the opportunity to contribute to a large multipart project. Do your best and realize it's not a solo steel guitar project -- save your best licks for your own steel sonata.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 13 May 2005 6:55 am

If you can understand what the producer wants then just play whats needed in the first full pass. That way they won't need to waste time editing your parts and you will get hired more often.

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Bob
intonation help

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 13 May 2005 7:56 am

Sessions still vary around here, a few are even tracked the "old Nashville style" with everybody playing together. There are an awful lot of overdub sessions all done in pro tools, and (especially with rock/pop producers), they really want to have a lot of tracks to select comp parts from. Make's 'em feel like they're earning their keep... on those I try to give them something different on each pass. With the less "steel friendly" producers, I'll show them a brief selection of the various approaches, ie: chordal padding, harmony pads and connecting runs, ambient wash, single note fills, etc. to give them an idea of what's available in the palette. That almost always results in a "yeah, that's what I'm looking for" moment. I'm still surprised how many of the comped tracks actually work when I finally get the CD... the only aggravation to me is when someone comps something unmusical or unplayable. When I know there'll be a lot of computer assembly, I try to play "sectionally" to avoid having cuts across slides and fills. As Larry says, it's "work for hire" and we're there to make the artist and producer sound and look good. I truly love being part of the process, warts and all.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 13 May 2005 8:15 am

When I lived in Nashville, it was the "norm" for producers to have a pretty good idea of what they expected from a steel. I found that there was less editing overall. However, here there are a lot of producers who have never worked with steel and don't know really what to expect (they don't have history with working with the instrument). Although they really like the instrument, they approach the recording of it the same way they do other instruments...play a lot of variations and allow them to use what they want. Sometimes I like what they use, sometimes not so much but so long as they keep calling me...I'll go with it.

Nate LaPointe · Post by **Nate LaPointe** » 13 May 2005 9:15 am

Both the producer and the artist on this session yesterday were very nice and had good suggestions. They hadn't worked with a steel much, but were able to say "that's the right color or vibe" or "do an ascending line instead of a descending line." Overall is was a great session, and I got paid! But true joy in the studio comes when I'm recording my own project.

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www.natelapointe.net

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 May 2005 9:49 am

John:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Quote:

"Simple...the producers consider it their project since it's their money paying for it"

Actually, it is very rare when the producer is paying for the project, unless it is a production company deal. Producers are generally hired for the project, paid an advance against their future royalties on the project, and try and make the best possible record.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, not ALL producers have their own money in it, but there are many levels of producers. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS are usually the ones who front the majority of the money, and sometimes many ASSOCIATE PRODUCERS do also, and they are the ones concerned about the bottom line, and that the record make money, meaning, the lower-lever producers in the studio do what they think is necessary to make the recording sound good and also fit with what the guys upstairs with the power and money want.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Quote:

"but they can't play the actual instruments themselves, so they hire musicians to furnish them with licks/fills/sounds that they can disassemble, reassemble or reconstruct in whatever order or fashion they think is cool, including modifiying with any kind oddball effects...they claim your playing as there own, as if they are the musicians playing... or should we refer to it as constructing... the song"

While a lot of this happens in certain genres of music, that's pretty far off base for country music...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I guess I'd be off base if I was referring only to country music, but I WASN'T. Is everyone? Who said?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Since they're the ones in charge, there's not a lot you can do about it unless it's your own money backing the recording, distribution and promotion"

Well, you're right there, to a degree.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, thanks.

By the way, I really don't care if my part's cut-up or whatever, unless I thought it was perfect as it was, but they pay me and whatever I played is their property to do with as they wish. I'm just laying out how and why I think it happens, it's not that I care. I cut-up my own stuff too.
[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 May 2005 at 03:38 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 May 2005 9:58 am

Like a few here, I where more than one hat.
(No cattle comments...)

Heck, I cut up my own parts if I think it makes the song better.
I GIVE my side men several passe so they can get their best performance down,
even if it's likely lt that the 1st 8 was better in track 4
and the 2nd 8 from track 2

It makes THEiR overall performance better.

I had a sax player come in once for 3 hours,
and he played by ear 5 takes, 8 measures at a time.

9 months later he was totally blown away by the sax part he heard,
and asked who played it..
I said you did.... his jaw was on the ground,
but it was smiling too.

A good producee wants to make your BEST work
apparent where it helps the song.

Others only worry about making a bed for the singer to be cool over.
I prefer the former to be sure.

Do I worry about being cut up... heck no

Would I like to be playing with a live band in the studio,
tighter than twins and one take wonders ;
sure if I can.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 May 2005 at 11:06 AM.][This message was edited by David L. Donald on 14 May 2005 at 12:52 PM.]

Paul Honeycutt · Post by **Paul Honeycutt** » 13 May 2005 10:01 am

All I can add is, Welcome to the womderful world of Pro Tools! There are so many options in the studio these days. You have everything from a "recording" that is a docuument of an actual performance, to thinking of the studio as an instrument with all of the sounds made by musicians looked upon as raw materials to be modified and reassembled at a later time. In both cases, some incredible music is being made and a lot of crap is being made as well. As players, all we can do is give our best and smile all the way to the bank!

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 13 May 2005 10:15 am

"Nice try John"

Gee, sorry--I just reacted as a producer of 25+ years and how it related to the world I know. Your statement was very broad and possibly misleading to those who don't know better. Nothing personal.

Your milage may vary...

[This message was edited by John Macy on 13 May 2005 at 11:17 AM.][This message was edited by John Macy on 13 May 2005 at 11:26 AM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 May 2005 10:29 am

John, I understand where you're coming from and I'm sure I would feel the same way. I didn't mean to include all producers such as yourself, who are genuinely doing their best to make the recording sound its' best... and still keep the suits happy...

I apologize for my broad statements which could have been much better-worded. It was a somewhat off-the-cuff response, and I admit it was more negative than really necessary. I can admit when I'm wrong (it's just that I so seldom am...)

I've tried to edit the post to be a bit more fair.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 May 2005 at 11:45 AM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 13 May 2005 11:18 am

Producers send me MP3s of the tracks. I lay down more than they can use. I MP3 them back. I let THEM dice and splice. They send me a check. I am happy, THEY are happy. That is the way it is done today. You basically have no control over your sound or your licks or anything else. The editing/sampling mentality runs the studio production mostly so just take the money and have fun with it. You want to have some kind of control---you will be controlling yourself with no sessions.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 May 2005 11:21 am

Yeah, Bill. I do the same thing. I don't really care what they do with it after they tell me they're happy with it and pay me for it.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 May 2005 at 03:24 PM.]

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 13 May 2005 12:23 pm

No sweat, Jim--I was on about my 5th cup of coffee when I read it