Back pains and leg cramps from practicing.

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 20 Apr 2005 1:14 pm

I usually practice for about 1 and a half to 2 hours a day. Recently, I started adding some serious volume pedal workout to my practice sessions. Since I did, I've been slowly developing pains in the lumbar area. Today I woke up with a full on ciatic nerve type pain, from the left buttox down to the knee!

Funny thing is it doesn't hurt while practicing, only afterwards. What could it be? I have a couple of clues:

I practice with a drum stool, not very well padded and obviously no lumbar support. Also, I have made both my guitars 2 to 3 inches shorter, although I still have to lift my legs up a bit to activate the knee levers, so my heel is hardly ever touching the ground.

Anybody else have similar problems? How did you deal with it? I've been THIS close to deciding to switch over to lap steel (also that new MSA Super Slide looks real sexy too!).

Jody Cameron · Post by **Jody Cameron** » 20 Apr 2005 1:22 pm

Sounds to me like your guitar is still too high. I never have to lift my heel to hit a knee lever, unless it a vertical lever. The guitar does not "fit" you properly, for whatever reason(s). I've never experienced pain like you describe, and I think with some adjustments, your problem could be solved.

Bob Stone · Post by **Bob Stone** » 20 Apr 2005 2:11 pm

It does sound like your instrument is too high. You might seriously consider having a physical therapist observe you while you play. You'll have to bring your steel and drum stool into the PT's office, or find one who makes house calls. But by all means, do something right away. Spinal problems only worsen if not attended to.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Apr 2005 5:04 pm

We need to know how high your seat is. (Measure from the floor to the top of the seating surface.)

David Yannuzzi · Post by **David Yannuzzi** » 20 Apr 2005 7:10 pm

Stretch...and then stretch some more. I do some yoga stretches so i don't throw more back out after I practice for an hour. I also see a Chiropracter about once a week or every 2 weeks.It depends.
I also stretch my calves and ankles .Like runners do.The more I practice the more I stretch or else I can hurt myself.I have gotton over zealous and practice alot with no stretching and hurt my back bad. You have to be careful you don't want to hurt yourself and then not be able to play at all for a week.You have to build stamina up slowly.Hope that helps.-Dave[This message was edited by David Yannuzzi on 20 April 2005 at 08:12 PM.]

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 20 Apr 2005 8:01 pm

Give special attention to sitting up straight. You will play better too

Hook

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www.HookMoore.com

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 20 Apr 2005 8:06 pm

I have a similar problem on my right side. Cramps all the way down to the top of my foot. My problem is not caused by practice but aggravated by my poor posture while playing.
I am working hard to improve the SITuation. I am using a drummers throne with a backrest. This gives one the ability to adjust the height easily. I am concentrating on keeping an arch in my back, and adjusting the backrest to give some support.

hope this helps

Ron

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 21 Apr 2005 4:19 am

I used to have back problems before I started stretching exercises on a daily basis. This is especially helpful if you do stretches before you get out of bed. My doctor gave me instructional material showing the exercises.
I don't think lumbar support is needed (my opinion). I only use the back of my seat when not playing.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Apr 2005 6:03 am

There is no question about it. You should NOT have to lift your leg or go onto your toe in order for your knee to hit the levers. There is a proper playing position. Sitting up straight with your back and lower leg perpendicular to the floor and your forearms and thighs parallel to the floor. Your feet should stay on the floor and you should press pedals with your heel on the floor.

Following these guidelines will help relieve cramps. If your guitar or your seat is still too tall to allow you to sit with the proper body orientation you need to adjust the height of one or both.

This is important stuff. You should NOT be in pain from practicing one or two hours per day. Good luck.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Carlos Polidura · Post by **Carlos Polidura** » 21 Apr 2005 6:28 am

OH BOY,,,,,,,
SOUNDS LIKE SOME OF YOU GUYS ARE GETTING "TOO OLD" FOR PEDAL STEEL GUITAR PLAYING....
HOWEVER.....DON'T GIVE UP.
REMEMBER THE SAYING...........

NO PAIN...NO GAME.

JUST KIDDING

CARLOS

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 21 Apr 2005 6:37 am

One thing is having something to rest the left heel upon.

I use a short block of 2x4 under my left heel and have since about 1 hour after sitting behind my first pedal steel.

I don't understand how ANYONE can play for hours w/out one. It increases speed, dexterity and comfort.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 21 Apr 2005 7:22 am

Kyoshi;

how tall are you?

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 21 Apr 2005 8:05 am

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the replies. This is certainly a major issue. I'll answer Dave's question first, since it seems the more prescient one. I measure 1.67 meters. That's about 5 feet and 5 inches.

Dont laugh

that's pretty short I know! That's why I have had to shorted both my guitars. The guitar I'm currently playing the most is a thomas universal that used to belong to David Wright, so it was pretty tall. I had to cut quite a bit off the legs and pedal rods. I guess I could have cut a bit more, since I still have about an inch and a half between the top of my knees and the bottom of the guitar.

I also noted that, in addition to lifting my heel to play the pedals, my legs aren't perpendicular to the floor when playing. My position is roughly like when you sit at a bar stool, but much closer to the ground.

Of course, stretching and excercising helps. But all the pains and cramps come back when I sit back and play.

Marty, you should try some stilletto heels

You probably get a better angle of rotation for A+B pedal movement, and it's probably a bit more fashionable than a block of wood! Seriously, I tried that a couple of times, after realizing cowboy boots didn't work for me, but it was just too much of a hastle. Besides, I think I should try and fix all the length and position issues first.

BTW, I'm 27 years old, so I shouldn't be having these types of back problems!

Thanks again everyone!

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 21 Apr 2005 8:14 am

Hmmm...
I DO have that nice little black sheath that I love to wear.
Usually just pumps though.
Stilettos WITH FISHNETS!
Why didn't I think of that?!?
Thanx Kiyoshi![This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 21 April 2005 at 09:14 AM.]

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 21 Apr 2005 8:55 am

Hi Kiyoshi; our friends Jody, John, Larry and the guys are correct again. Isn't it nice to have these pros on here to help us, sure wish i knew these guys years ago, i bet i could be able to actually play right now!
As i play only C6th, i cannot leave my heel on the floor, as you E9th fellas do. I use both feet, and both knees at once very often.
As in the intro to "Night Life" and the song "Girl From Impanema". I had to retire
my old Sho Bud seat, lower back pain. I was having trouble even getting through a 4 hour gig with that old seat. like i was sitting on the floor with my knees up around my chin, no back support. I got a new Steel Rider seat from Scotty, with the back rest and all..in one word "Heaven". But the guys are right..something sounds too hi. I had a habit of having to "Reach" for my pedals and levers. My builder and good friend Paul Redmond [no relation] has a concept called a "Bent Y Configuration" works great for me....Get rid of that there whatyacall drum stool..ever watch a drummer walk! too funny!
Notice the bend of my pedals on my single 12 whitney

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

Alan Shank · Post by **Alan Shank** » 21 Apr 2005 9:43 am

"One thing is having something to rest the left heel upon.
I use a short block of 2x4 under my left heel and have since about 1 hour after sitting behind my first pedal steel."

Is it attached to your shoe? If not, how do you keep it in place? I am still looking for the best way to keep my left foot relaxed.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 21 Apr 2005 11:00 am

I fold up my towel and put the block on top and occasionally I do have to adjust it with my foot but that's about it.

Carlos Polidura · Post by **Carlos Polidura** » 21 Apr 2005 11:13 am

GEE,,,,,,
THATS A NICE MACHINE YOU GOT THERE GEORGE.
HAVE FUN WITH IT FOR AS LONG AS YOU WISH.
BEST WISHES,,,
CARLOS

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Apr 2005 12:35 pm

Marty,
You're the only one I've EVER heard of who puts anything under your heel when playing. I've seen just about every master of the pedal steel up close and never has anyone worn any special shoe or added anything on the floor to elevate the heel. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS SOLUTION. If you practice for an hour or so and your ankle, foot, or calf hurts, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR TECHNIQUE AND/OR POSTURE WHILE PLAYING. Have a pro watch you play if possible and analyze why you have pains. It just shouldn't be. I play for four hours with 15 minute breaks all the time and never have an ache.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 21 Apr 2005 1:16 pm

Be that as it may, it seems like a common sense solution to me.
No matter how long the rods and how short the travel, you still have to hold the ball of your foot 'up' at an angle that exceeds 90' (unless your wearing 'cowboy' boots).

I, however, am 6'4" and play behind an unmodified Dekckckhhchleeeyiey so the guitar is tilted forward and left to accomodate my posture.

In any case, since no 'pro' does it, I'll cease and desist immediately!

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 21 Apr 2005 1:27 pm

Hey, as long as your not hurting yourself, right? I mean check these guys out:
http://www.gfimusicalproducts.com/Pages/Custom%20Steels.htm

towards the bottom, there's some examples of wacky setups for people with special needs. Again, as long as it doesn't hurt you... and as long as it allows you to play confortably, I would do whatever it takes.

BTW, I've lowered my seat, and that has resulted in a body position that doesn't produce any inmediate pain. I will have to lower the guitar further though, since now my arms aren't parallel to the ground. That would probably result in some pretty heavy wrist pains if'n I didn't.

Craig Villalon · Post by **Craig Villalon** » 21 Apr 2005 1:36 pm

It just so happens that I had a massage today due to back pains from too much steelin. Several weeks ago i had a free weekend sans family responsibilities and spent about 12 hours at the steel...the next day i could barely stand much less bend over...unfortunately i had been playing the steel for 20yrs before i had lessons from Billy Cooper and Buddy Charlton. They both "tried" to correct my bad body posture and like an old dog, i didnt want to learn any new tricks. The situation compounded itself since i have been trying to learn the C6 neck so i not only slump towards the right, but my hips are now turned to the right as well...this has thrown my body way out of alignment. I would feel occasional back fatigue on the E9 after a 4 hour gig. I was told to not lean back on my seat and to sit erect over the guitar...when i did that i began to feel pain in my calf and ankle(left). So ignoring the advice of the instruction i received i havent been able to sit much with the guitar for the past couple of weeks..my irritability has increased the longer i am not playing....i am short statured as well...5ft6in but do not have to lift my foot to work the pedals..my guitar is a stock Derby...i think your guitar is still too tall or your stool is as well. To reduce this drivel, proper position is extremely important as well as stretching routinely and getting up off the stool on a regular basis and walking around. I am 54 and not gaining in body flexibility, just mental flexibility (LOL)

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Apr 2005 4:59 pm

That's good news about lowering your seat and the pain subsiding, Kiyoshi. I really do believe that proper posture is as important as the angle to which your picks are bent or what size and type of bar you use. If you still can't reach the levers without raising your foot off the floor I'd seriously suggest lowering the legs and rods a bit more. Good luck.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps