Reputation importace question:

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 15 Feb 2005 4:40 pm

Les,
It's really your call (the band members involved, that is).
For example, I have enough on my plate right now with day to day life such that I don't want to arrange to gig with anyone who isn't musically up to speed, and at least moderatly versed in the general ways & means of getting through a gig without causing other members to feel like it sucked.
FWIW, I have to rehearse many steel parts like 1000 times over (seriously, sometimes 2000 times) untill I feel comfortable playing them on stage.
Needless to say, it's getting hard for me to feel comfortable playing with folks who haven't put a similar amount of time into their chosen shtick.

Where do you draw the line?...
Don't do anything you don't want to do.
(And you might want to fine your band leader a round of Rossland Specials for not heading this situation off at the pass).

I'm sure if you do do the gig, all your friends will be patting you on the back saying, Wheew-eee, Gawd bless you fellers for puttin' up with that. Yer a better man den mey!
You come away with "willing to rescue a damsel in distress" added to your reputations... But when you get home and the wife asks how the gig went, you'll probably say "it sucked".[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 15 February 2005 at 06:18 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 15 Feb 2005 6:25 pm

Les, you haven't wronged anybody to say you don't want to play a particular gig in a particular way. You guys went the mileage, didn't create a scene onstage and did what was asked of you. But after that, all bets are off. Everybody has their own line in the sand - I set my decision parameters, make a decision, and move on from there. I turn down gigs frequently. In fact, since I'm not making a living at music these days, I turn down most of the gigs I'm offered. To me, it's music first, and if I don't think it's worth messing with, I don't mess with it. We all have only so much time, and we all have goals, musical and otherwise. Unless I thought this 17-year-old had enormous musical potential that I really thought could be harnessed somehow in a manner that meant something to ME (this means getting her dad out of the picture, imo), then I wouldn't give this a second look, I'd be outta there in 10 seconds flat. That's my line in the sand. Others set theirs differently, that's fine, IMO.

One other thing - if you're feeling a bit guilty about being hardnosed about this, I would get over it. When the shoe's on the other foot, let's say you've spent a few years 'grooming' a young singer, and suddenly she starts to hit paydirt, it's very unusual if she takes you with her to the 'big time'. I don't say it never happens, but my experience says most of the time, you're gone with a single curt phone call. .

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 15 Feb 2005 7:29 pm

There's some real nuggets of wisdom in David Doggett's post.

Les, you say this girl can carry pitch great. That's better than 95% of other "singers" out there. She also knows and likes (at least I'm guessing she likes) Country classics and she's only 17. I've never met anybody remotely that age who has a love for the roots of Country music. Furthermore, this sounds like music you enjoy playing.

Now, if I've read your posts correctly, it sounds like you didn't actually play out to a public audience with this young lady, so there was no harm done to your band's reputation, publicly. What's to keep you from letting this young lady practice with you until she figures out how she fits in with the music? Tell Daddy you refuse to play a public gig until she can be comfortable amongst more than a strum-strum rhythm section, but also express interest in fostering her ability. Who's run before they've learned to walk? You ever seen children learn to walk, though? It's kind of an agonizing, because of how much they stumble around and crash during movements that seem simple for you. It's amazing, though, watching them pick it up. When they learn to run, boy, it's marvelous... (And then frightening when you realize how much harder they've become to track down! And how much more energy they have than you! Ha!)

It sounds like this dad is a genuine bonafide jackass, but if you see as much potential in this girl as I've interpreted your words, maybe you could help foster it, and figure out a way to block distractive Daddy out. If she could be a winner, she shouldn't lose out because he's a loser. I'm not saying you have the chance to sculpt next Pam Tillis, I'm just asking, "What if you do?" That would be worth more than money.

In the end, this has got to be your call, but make sure you come out of it with your own reputation for civility intact, and stay focused on what you want to accomplish as a musician and as a human being.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 16 Feb 2005 4:08 am

Les, it sounds like the defense of the young girl is primary. Not that it is a bad thing to defend her.

If she sings well, has good pitch etc..thats excellent..but if she has NO TIMING then she really is in over her head.

From what I have read it sounds to me like the young girl is really NOT a capable bandstand singer as harsh as that sounds.

IF Daddy thinks this is a harsh situation just wait until he spends the big bucks for a session with the primo players and a producer.

It can't keep coming back to the band as an issue..eventually she and Daddy'o are gonna have to rise to the occassion or come to the conclusion that she is not going to be a Country Star.

Yes, the band members/players need to act professional and attempt to help..but at what cost ? How much time should a PRO musician spend with this situation ? Is it for free or paid ? At some point it will all get back to where it is now and everyone will be frustrated, the Daddy with the band and the band with they young gal and Daddy..

Many of use here as written above have played behind countless bandstand guests thru the years..many had great voices, loved County Music, looked good, had fine pitch etc..all that good stuff..

BUT..along with the good stuff...many could not find any resemblance of timing..totally lost on the changes..

and unfortunately, timing is more important than a good voice .

I make no claims about my skill level, but I have been on the bandstand for over 40 years..and I can say this from my own experiences. It is not possible to play your best stuff or even what you rehearsed with someone who has no timing or cannot feel the timing. Everything we play is based on timing within measures..phrasing based on understood and anticipated melody's...if the meldody reference and timing changes then no amount of preparation is useful.It ends up as a totally frustrating experience. You are no longer playing music..I'm not really certain what to call it..maybe survival...

I hate this for everyone concerned..it will be a hard to get a win win...

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 16 February 2005 at 04:18 AM.]

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 16 Feb 2005 5:34 am

I agree with most of the comments about timing, phrasing and so on. The strange thing is, we have singers around here that work all the time. Their timing is terrible , not the best voices and don't even know the words to the song ,as they were written. I have heard this comment so often, " I don't care how they wrote the song. this is the way I do it ". I have decided if I work with these folks it must be the money. So I am a Steel Guitar Prostitute, right ? .It surely isn't the satifaction that we get from playing with folks who can't sing and for the audience who don't seem to know the difference.It is good that I am seventy one years old as I don't think I could stand the changes that are still to come in my "country music."
I have done a fair amount of singing in my life and don't know how you can sing if you don't feel the rhythm of the band . This scenario reminds me of the time I took my drum machine to a gospel practice as they didn't have a drummer. The lead singer and the bass player had it shut off because it couldn't " keep time with us ". ?
Go figure.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 16 Feb 2005 9:06 am

Les, if you ask where do you draw the line, and who is right, then everybody is right, but everybody looses. The band has the right to set the sandards for what level they will play at. The singer has the right to expect the band to play what she can sing. So if that's the way it ends, you walk away. She has to find another band, and you guys never get to play with her. The other option is to work with her a little and see what happens. It sounds like she never played with a band before. Daddy strummed it really simple, and probably followed her if she got off. Playing with a band is a new skill she has to learn. If she has the talent it sounds like, it probably wont take much work to get her used to it. But you have to take it down to her starting level and bring her up gradually. None of us were there, so we don't know how hopeless the situation is. If you think it is hopeless, or will take too much time, then you bow out. You had a tryout and it didn't work out. Happens all the time in music.

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 16 Feb 2005 12:39 pm

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Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 16 Feb 2005 4:04 pm

Les- The young girl at 17 ,is she in high school? If she liked singing ,I would think she would be in chorus,or in some music classes. a school music teacher could be of some help. Joe

Bill Moran · Post by **Bill Moran** » 16 Feb 2005 4:17 pm

What makes the front runner sound good, makes the BAND sound good. We might not like it but who are we !! Nothing ***
My opinion, Next picker please.
Bill
Marion, Va....

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 16 Feb 2005 6:12 pm

I'm with you, Bill.

I said this casually before, but I see the same sentiment over and over again so I feel like saying it one more time:

There is nothing demeaning at all about playing simply. It does not tarnish the reputation of players. An A-list band can play straight rhythm parts with absolutely no frills and you will never mistake their talent or years of practice.

There is nothing so shameful about messing up when it's your first time playing with a live band. It's very confusing making the switch from recorded tracks to a live setting. If she sang with you guys a few more times you'd see a world of difference, regardless of her talent level. Now maybe you don't want the gig-- Don't take it, don't bag on the girl.

I've been fortunate enough to sit in with some players who were light years beyond my ability. They think of it as helping me out, and it's true. That's how you learn and get better. None of us were born making this music. It's a tradition that we pass down to younger players. It's part of the job.

What this whole thing sounds like to me is a bunch of hired musicians who think they're too good to play with a beginner (strike one), who think they have to play fancy or the music isn't good (strike two), and who think they're doing someone a favor when they're getting paid to play (strike three).

The hottest players I know are also the most accessible, most humble, and most grateful. It's not a coincidence that it works like that.

Burton Lee
Denton, TX

Buck Grantham · Post by **Buck Grantham** » 16 Feb 2005 6:39 pm

It sounds like the young lady might have a timing problem . If the band has been playing a long time and she can't stay with their rythm, she's got a problem(I beleive)

Michael Breid · Post by **Michael Breid** » 16 Feb 2005 6:59 pm

I worked a show in Branson once where if one note in the turnaround was different the girl singer was thrown off. One note. The note was not an "off" note, it was a slight grace note that I added because I was bored after eight months of the same 11 notes in the turnaround. I added a quick grace note which was a one fret slide to the beginning note. I was quickly taken aside after the show and told by the owners to never play the turnaround like that again because it threw the girl off. O.K. Perhaps the note was not "on the record", so I never "strayed" again. It wouldn't have made any difference because the girl had about as much business singing as I did doing brain surgery. But that wasn't the issue. She was family and when family pays your wages you do exactly what family wants. I don't have a problem with that. I've been a musical prostitute for years. My motto is: "I'll play fish if you'll pay scale". I'm such a ham I'd play a car wreck if there was a crowd. If the girl singer's dad is wanting you to play "thump thump", play "thump thump". You were hired to back her up and not prove how great you could play. I played a recording session once with a gospel group who had a guitarist who played every lick he ever knew on the song. One didn't know if the gospel group was singing behind his guitar playing or vice versa. I believe that's why they call it "comping". Your job is to "compliment" the singer or player. That's what keeps you working. I've seen it get worse as the years go by. There was an old song that went something like, "No one wants to play rhythm guitar behind Jesus". It seems that everyone in the band wants to be in the spotlight. Play the gig as you were hired to do, take the money and split. Gripe about it to yourself after you have cashed the check and paid a few bills. If you are to be a star it will happen. A lot of people want to start at the top nowadays. What a shame. You gots to pay da dues.