Reputation importace question:

Dave Grothusen · Post by **Dave Grothusen** » 14 Feb 2005 3:03 pm

We live in a world of Karioke. Not sure that is even how you spell that.
Anyway these young stars grow up singing with a "known" sound and do not get the feel of the real thing. We just had a young girl from here win a national singing contest in Orlando. I have picked with all the guys she had been working with band-wise for the last two years and I was told that at first she could not even sing with them. I have seen that before. It takes practice to play with a live group.
That said, depending on the circumstances the band should have at least tried to help this young lady. Not for daddy's sake but for hers. The audience would have liked it a whole lot more too rather than seeing them run away from her. Would not want to do a whole show that way however. I have found the only way to be a better musician is to play with people better than you. Otherwise they drag you down to their level.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 14 Feb 2005 3:48 pm

The tactful solution is to tell the father that the girl needs to learn certain things about performing (like how to sing in time,) and offer to spend some extra time alone with her to teach her.

The girl is probably unaware of the nature of the problem. Once she understands what she's doing wroing, and what she needs to do to correct herself, the problem will hopefully go away.

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So many guitars, so little time....

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Feb 2005 3:51 pm

Dave,
There are many degrees between
you're all one big band and the singer is just another member
and
she's the boss; you're an employee

Road musicians are in essence contractors who agree, often in writing, to play for a given period with specified pay, work conditions, and hours of work. The boss doesn't have to pay any FICA or any of that stuff and the musicians don't necessarily have to be union members. But the 'artist' (a term I despise) is the BOSS. That may or may not be the case here. I still have no clue what Dad's role is.

Pete has a good point. Perhaps the band should have auditioned the singer. Actually, I treat all auditions as two way streets. I won't go to one for a gig I wouldn't actually take, but, by the same token, if I don't like the music director / band leader (or the singer's Dad) I am fully within my rights to take a pass.

We still haven't heard for sure whether Dad is a stakeholder -- getting gigs or providing equipment or guaranteeing wages and work. If not, I wouldn't take him seriously and if he made my life miserable, I'd take a hike so fast it'd make your head swim.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 February 2005 at 03:55 PM.]

Kevin Sowder · Post by **Kevin Sowder** » 14 Feb 2005 4:52 pm

As a music professor said, "Even stable jockeys have voices..."
It happens all the time.
Did he pay cash?

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 14 Feb 2005 5:06 pm

Dad needs a boom box and a cassette. At least until she has an understanding about meter and phrasing. That's what singing is really all about.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 14 Feb 2005 7:31 pm

So you get to play with a retarded chick singer and also get to hang out with her bossy dad ! If the drummer has a coke problem you have hit the trifecta.

Bob

Daryl Stogner · Post by **Daryl Stogner** » 14 Feb 2005 8:26 pm

Sounds like this is just a showcase deal and the band was hired to play backup to showcase the singer.

If they gave you guys a list of material to learn or play, then you're stuck playing it the way the singer/manager/daddy want it done.

Anyone going to a showcase will know they're there to hear the singer and that the band was hired to play what the singer wants.

Do the showcase, collect your money and move on to the next gig.

Some "talent" in a showcase can be so hard to work with that they will fire a band or members of the backup band, because one or all of them couldn't play exactly the way someone did on their recorded demo. Amazing, but if they want to pay you to play simple, then play simple.

Be happy you didn't have to invest time and effort to learn their demo songs and then have this happen.

I know it hurts, but it's just a gig.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 14 Feb 2005 10:04 pm

Maybe a better explanation of the situation is needed.

Dad was basically her singing coach and was the guy who taught her everything she knew about singing. Working with a live band was obviously not part of her lessons.

The guys who the father rounded the musician up to back his daughter have been playing together off and on for twenty years. None of these guys are beginners by any stretch of the imagination: they are experienced country music musicians. The thing is, the father thought it was time his daughter to begin singing in public and with a live band. As he put it, he wanted some half decent musicians behind her". We were not informed that she had never sang with a live band.

Also, this was not a live stage performance; thankfully. It was a first time getting together thing; however, we did get her play list when we first arrived at the hall and ran through the intros and all the rest before she even arrived. All of the songs were classic old time country songs that we all can play in our sleep. The girl, as I said is seventeen and has never sang with a professional, live band. That’s were the problems started.

She had a few problems with her timing on the intros but that was an easy fix as long as our lead guitarist gave her the cue. The rest was a nightmare. Our lead and bass guys think she may have been taught to sing with a song book in her hand and daddy playing along with his guitar, with daddy leading her into all the chord changes. In other words, it was strum, strum in G: strum, strum in C; then straight into D, strum, strum.

She got lost on the bridges, turnarounds, and about everything else. The simple strum, strum that she was used to was not there; also, I think the noise of a live, five piece band, really rattled her.

I’ll make it clear here, though they wanted to “no one walked out on this young lady!”

We spent an hour with her, and 45 minutes of that was getting prompts from dad that we had to get simpler and simpler to the point where it sounded like a beginner’s chord progression practice so she wouldn’t get lost. None of the guys gave her a lecture, no one was rude to her and most certainly no one deliberately threw any curves at her as a joke to make her look bad. She was just plain not ready for a professional, live band.

The original question was however, do musicians have a protocol right to say that we would rather not play at this level?

(We all got paid as agreed but, let the father know that we wouldn’t be doing this again.)

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 14 February 2005 at 10:06 PM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 14 Feb 2005 10:26 pm

Sounds like everyone had the runs....

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 15 Feb 2005 2:39 am

and when are the scheduled live appearances ?

and what reputation does she have, she has never been in front of an audience ?

These situations are not uncommon but I think as a back up musician it is foolish to NOT tell Dad that she needs about 6 months of quality rehearsals before going on stage.

and that brings up another issue..these should be paid rehearsals...if they are not already..

Someone in the band needs to rise to the occassion and ask Dad to step aside when it comes to the rehearsals and bandstand, and maybe work with the gal privately without DAD's input for several sessions to give the gal a chance to see how it's done and then bring the band in. Dad needs to hire one of the players for extra duty here...

Maybe go upm to an open mic night with her a few times as well...

IF Dad takes offense then so be it..remind him that it took you 20 years to get to the bandstand..thats longer then the gal has been living...

It's to soon for the whole band right now..she needs to sit with a real musician for a several sessions maybe several months...

It's highly possible that she learned all this BAD stuff from Daddy..if he has bad timing and is teaching her..well......

IF Dad does not agree with this then my feeling is the band should move on as it would not get any better....

Maybe Dad is living his dream in her...

The musicians responsibility is to play the best they can and make her sound good..not play as simple as possible so that she does not get lost..thats not a performance or a show...and what happens if they can't play SIMPLE enough in a LIVE situation ? Then what ?

Dad must understand that even though he thinks she is the STAR and the PRO..it's the musicians that are gonna make this happen, not him, not his checkbook, not his ego, nothing,it is not about him anymore if he wants the gal to sing in front of the minions.

It's either something like this or back to singing in front of the family at Thanksgiving...after the Cheese cake of course...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 15 February 2005 at 02:52 AM.]

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 15 Feb 2005 3:17 am

Maybe Dad is living his dream in her...

Couldn't agree with you more Tony.I think that that is dads problem.
But in behalf of dad I have to say that if it were my daughter I may have behaved the same way.
A good father always wants what's best for his daughter.Most of the time this means that they don't see the facts.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6[This message was edited by Ronald ! on 15 February 2005 at 03:18 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Feb 2005 5:18 am

I guess I'm trying to figure out WHY NOBODY WALKED OUT. Only thing that would have attracted me would have been money. If there was no money, no gigs, and no musical satisfaction, why did you guys stay around and take the abuse?

You gotta know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em

Like others have mentioned, she has a boatload of woodshedding to do before she is ready for the band. Dad needs to find her a REAL vocal coach who will prepare her for singing in the real world.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 15 Feb 2005 5:19 am

Sounds like they're "walking up" to a chord?

How much is the gig worth to ya?

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<pre>Drew Howard - website - Fessy D-10 8/8, Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3</pre>

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 15 Feb 2005 5:40 am

I know that girl, I have worked with her on numerous occasions. Funny thing though, every time, she looked like a different person...

The thought that keeps popping up in the back of my mind, what if Dad decides to "go to Nashville" to cut a demo. I pity the staff musicians.

Bill

Daryl Stogner · Post by **Daryl Stogner** » 15 Feb 2005 6:16 am

I think Tony hit the nail on the head on this. See if Dad is approachable about working with the gal on her timing and maybe even teach her to read a chart, so she will know where to come in.

Maybe sing the same song with her and show her how it's done. It Dad isn't willing then walk away and he can hire a garage band that's just starting out.

It's bad enough having someone walk up on stage to sing with the band when they're like this, but to do a whole set or show? I don't think so.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 15 Feb 2005 6:20 am

We do a jam every Sat. and Sunday and have a fellow that has horrible timing problems, comes in whenever he wants with no pattern to it. The only solution (other than laying out) is to have the singer sing along with him in the verses and choruses to prompt him on his timing. Maybe dad could do the same until she gets a feel for it. Some music lessons with an emphasis on rhythm would help too. We can't walk out on our guests so we cook up amazing solutions to solve different problems. It might not hurt to compromise on the "dumbing down" of the progressions somewhere between what dad wants and the players feel.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 15 Feb 2005 6:32 am

My band participated in an event sponcered by Colgate in Mansfielld, MA last summer. The back up band was professional and as well seasoned as you get. They also had a rehearsal with all the singers that were to perform the night before to go over the material.

The end result was several of the singers were so far off at the performance, the band was playing catch up to pull it off and in one case it was a complete disaster.

A very uncomfortable situation for all involved.

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 15 Feb 2005 6:39 am

Tell dad that if he wants his daughter to have a chance at it, to just get out of the way and keep his mouth shut. I've seen so many guys like this ruin their son's and daughter's potential careers. The girl has only been singing off paper so far and it's going to take her a while to get make the transition--if she has the ability at all.

When my church finally decided to start a praise band, I had to work with were the choir type musicians and singers. It was quite a task to say the least to get them to sing and play from their hearts instead of sheet music. I wanted to quit a bunch of times. After 6 months, it's still not where it needs to be, but it's gettin' there.

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 15 Feb 2005 12:07 pm

A tight band will only benefit her for her live stuff, she needs to feel a part of the band,that will come,,,I would offer up a live tape "sit back missy and listen to us play it this way, then we'll play it without all the tight breaks, and with the tight breaks, take the tape home and match it up darlin, no big deal, you'll get it"

Question #1, does the bass player have 4 strings? if more than four strings you could be in danger

Question #2, Sorry if I did not catch it earlier, are these originals?

Question #3, where is the drummer in all this, he is the cue master general, not the bass or guitar.

And last but not least,unless you have a personal prob with the kid or dad, why not share all that experience and help out the next crop, I bet you she'll smile and thank you for your support and encouragement,,, how about a little more "you can do it!",, as for the dad, sounds like he means well, I'd bet he'd appreciate a little support and encouragement and up front honesty too.

Anyway , good luck, (sounds like your crew doesn't want to go back anyway)

Just my stupid humble opinion brothers,play on

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 15 Feb 2005 12:23 pm

Well, in my humble opinion, she (and her dad) don't have a clue, and I'd avoid that situation at all costs. Clueless chick singers are like fish in the sea.

But, to be fair, many of the participants in this thread disagree: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/008402.html

They think it's you that needs rehearsal, and that it's your job to donate your time to teach the star how to count to four.

-John

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Feb 2005 12:32 pm

In one band I was in back in the '70s, the leader brought his new girlfriend to practice. She was really green. We just rolled our eyes, but we kept working with her, and she got a lot better. Her name was Pam Tillis. I'm sure her dad was grateful for our patience.

Once the problem becomes obvious you have two choices: 1) recognize it is going to take a lot of practicing and training to get her up to speed, and accept the task; or 2) decide that is not something you want to do, wish her luck and bow out.

If you choose the first option, you gotta stop the chord runs, drop down to her level and do the simple strum thing - her dad was right on that. Once she can stay with you on that, you can start working in the chord runs or whatever, one at a time, singing along with her and giving her a chance to learn how to do that. Hopefully you can get her up to speed on some of that stuff, although maybe you wont be able to do as much of it as you'd like. If you like her singing and she will be getting gigs you want to play, you will stick with her and have the patience to educate her. One neat compromise would be to keep her songs as simple as needed for her, but do a few instrumentals without her to show the audience what you can do.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Feb 2005 2:59 pm

If you are convinced that this is a project worth saving, I would strongly recommend making a decent recording of each practice session and being sure that Daughter and Dad get a copy to listen to carefully. If she gets it right during the rehearsal, listening to it again and again will reinforce the learning. If she screws it up, it will remind her (hopefully) that she needs to work on her timing and phrasing. You might even make a copy without the vocals for her to practice with.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 15 Feb 2005 3:41 pm

I would like to ask some of you guys who think the musicians may have wronged this the girl. Where would you place the separation line that separates a professional musician’s protocol and professional standards?

This young lady, though has a great if not a natural ability carry tone pitch,; however, she gets distracted then lost in the even the simplest elements of how a professional band plays. The father chastised the band for not coming “down” to her skill level. These guys have long served their apprenticeship and take their musicianship seriously. Understandably, the father did not want his daughter’s singing reputation to suffer; however, this book has another story on the other side of the cover.

The point here is, what happens to the reputation of these professional musicians who also have their own professional standards to uphold? Do they go on stage and sound like a beginning backroom band so this young lady will not look bad; or, should the onus fall on the vocalist to step up in her standards of skill level before she calls in a group of highly skilled musicians? Or, should the band swallow their pride and do whatever is needed so the vocalist sounds good?

So again, where do you draw the line between a musician's professional protocol and their professional standards?

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 15 February 2005 at 03:47 PM.]

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 15 Feb 2005 4:05 pm

"move into a chord run"?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Feb 2005 4:22 pm

Fer cryin' out loud, Les
IS THIS THE ONLY GIG IN TOWN?

If the guys don't like the food why don't they just find another restaurant?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps