Steelin' Licks ... Etiquette

Steve Richter · From: Neenah, WI USA

Just curious on where you draw the line when posting licks you've learned off other people's CD's. Or general opinions, anyway. Have I come to the right place?

For instance I have a exercise I'd like to to tab out and post, but 90% of it is copped from another player off the CD. Should you ask the player first or just go for it and credit him?

Thanks,

Steve

PS .. or her

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've heard of one steeler who tabbed out songs from another player's album (I won't name names). The notes were right, but a lot of the positions were different. Such is the nature of our instrument - there are several ways to play any combination of notes.

If I were you, I would contact the original player and discuss it with him. I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of someone whose playing I admired enough to imitate his style. It's a small world - really, it is!

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

I would consider it the highest form of flattery if someone were to think one of my licks worthy of theft and actually used it publicly especially if they acknowledged my creation.

But, alas, I need not fear anyone stealing one of my licks anytime soon!

Terry

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

I don't think anyone would want to steal any of my licks either.But if they did. I'd want them tabbed correctly.However, since you plan to post it just as an excerise and not such and such lick that Joe Who ever played. I wouldn't worry about it.Unless you plan to sell it.........bb

Billy Joe Bailey · From: Jackson, Mississippi, USA

I thought music went around in circles and what goes around comes around, I wonder who's been playing my licks??Bobbe Seymore?? whould he do that??????Anything to make the next pavement for that box of strings and the Cds----
he gave away out of the love of his heart what a super nice pal -Bobbe Seymore

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[This message was edited by Billy Joe Bailey on 04 January 2005 at 09:31 PM.]

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

In general, I agree that as a matter of courtesy, one should ask the person whose lick it is if it's okay to tab it out and distribute it publically. After all, they might want to do so themselves, and sell it to earn a livelihood! That would be their prerogative.

[note: I have reconsidered this opinion; see below]

Having said that, I'll add that when I look at tab and learn to play stuff from tab, it really doesn't much matter to me whether the tab is written the exact way that the original player played it, as long as it's a workable, suitable way to play it and it sounds good. Yes, we have many different ways to play something; so why worry about doing it the same way as someone else? You're never gonna sound like them anyway...

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 06 January 2005 at 07:23 AM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

What would be wrong with stating that this is the way you understand it to be played ? Kind of like a disclaimer..

I'm with Jimbeaux on this..If and when I look at a TABBED dealy..I may play it the same..or..I may not..I may use a part of it..I may apply it to something else I am doing and change positions..

How many times have we all sat down to work out a specific phrase and all of a sudden another one appears ?

I don't see an issue with this tab thing..as long as it is stated that it is your view of the phrase...and your approach...not from the Artist..

Contacting Loyd, Buddy, Paul, Mike J, Doug, John H, Russ etc.. is not the easiest thing to do in these situations. This is a Forum, an exchange of idea's. I think they all know this.

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 January 2005 at 04:35 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Of course, it would never hurt to ask the player, but this is rarely done on parts from songs. Usually, a player just tries to figure out what the "name player" did, and posts it.

However, if your "exercise" is based, not on a song, but on someone else's exercise that is contained in his instructional material or learning course, then I just don't think you should do it.

Studio musicians have already been paid for their work on recorded songs, but their instructional material earns them money only when they sell it. In that case, I'd say "get it from the source".

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 05 January 2005 at 08:41 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

If they have their own TAB use theirs,
if not either :

Do the TAB and send it to them for a response about posting it.

Or ask them before doing all the work.

Some might be glad to have a TAB done, and then make corrections if they do it another way.
Then post it in BOTH your names.

Credit where credit is due.

If the artist is no longer living, then the TAB doesn't exist and it becomes a legitmate transcription.
As opposed to an actual copywritten song.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Maybe I am missing something..

are we saying that each and every one of the tabs that folks post of licks that are from records ..such as the Ricky/Rebel site.. and also at this Site under Tablature..have been granted permission to tab the lick from the artist who played the lick on a recording?

Now if it is part of a published series for learning thats one thing,that is or at least should be, a copyrighted package...that would be a no no...

But if someone is asking how do I play "I Hate Everything" or " Remember When" ..and someone posts a version of Tab which reflects a version of the solo played..the way they see it...are we saying they should seek permission from Paul or Loyd first ?

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 January 2005 at 10:18 AM.]

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Uh Oh...Can we let this dog sleep a while longer before the hornets leave the nest?

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

If stealing licks is wrong then every b@njo player in the country should locked up and ....hey, wait a minute...we may be on to something here!

Terry

Gary Lee Gimble · From: Fredericksburg, VA.

Here we go again with yet another good natured banjo player dig. Its OK! Just gives me another excuse to post a mp3 bite of MY banjo playing fully loaded with stolen licks and some Gary Lee signature licks! For your listening enjoyment.

If I can just reach one person..... http://www.irish-studios.com/Downloads/bugle%20call.mp3

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I think that if you simply say "This is what I hear" you're done~ and thanks for considering posting one!

Steve Richter · From: Neenah, WI USA

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I've posted my take on Paul Franklin's solo from the Nottinghillbillies Run Me Down and maybe a couple of others and didn't get any negative feedback .. no possitive either!

.. but what made me think was that I unravelled Jay Dee's solo off of Desert Rose's version of Hello Trouble. I considered tabbing it but never got a round tuit ... later he came out with that on on his video.

Sounds like maybe the best thing to do is go for it and pull it if the heat comes down, eh?

Thanks again.

Charles Curtis · Posted 5 Jan 2005 5:17 pm

I can't help but comment on the outstanding ability of Gary Lee Gimble when he plays the psg, banjo or dobro. The man is a show stopper when he plays with any band; and a heck of a nice guy to boot.

Joseph V. Sapp · From: eastern shore, Md.

Gary Lee:
Just listened to the sound clip,,,,OH NO<<<< I think you've crossed over. (just kidding). downright fantastic. God Bless

Joe

Drew Howard · From: 48854

Nice banjo clip, Gary!

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Gazornktron T-16 w/ FranistatSUX2000 mod

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Love that diminished lick, Gary. Good stuff indeed.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I hate agreeing with Mr Hinson so much, as crumudgeonry is overtaking me fast enough now that I'm more than a year over the big 5-0. But I do.

I don't or haven't seen where tabbing out, or posting "guesses" as to how a lick is played would piss off anybody.

I OTOH wouldn't post my own recordings of me copying PF's CDs which I bought and studied.

I'd feel a little better about posting copies of my taped sessions with BC, but in that case, I would leave posting my interpretation of songs he wrote completely alone..

I wouldn't even whistle "KayLee's Song" and feel safe.

Huh Gary...

I notice that the Instructional CDs PF sells have only "progressions", and are not copywritable, though they might fit songs that are.

Interesting.

I'd say, as has been mentioned, "When in doubt, ask."

Nobody's totally safe.

EJL

Steve Richter · From: Neenah, WI USA

Yeah Gary! ... maybe some more good natured banjo player digs are in order.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Actually Jay Dee's Hello Trouble was in my mind for the last post.

Here is a lick a lot of people would want to see TAB'd,
but to do it takes bread out of Jay Dee's mouth since he HAS it tabbed and for sale.
I believe this is also a case where the posted tab was out before hand, but it is different that Jay Dee's. But he has not objected to my knowlege.

So my thought weas, especially for a new song, ask the picker, because he might be putting it out as a comercial product, derived from his work shortly, as is his right to do.

Chris Forbes · From: Beltsville, MD, USA

Gary, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Your musical mind works in odd and wonderful ways.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

HELLO TROUBLE has been on the Ricky and Rebel site for years..
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/1988.html

Look, I will be the first to pull back anything that is illegal or causing an issue..but guys,( and gals) licks and phrases are public domain. Session players HAVE BEEN PAYED to play it, they don't own the lick has harsh as that may sound...unless at some point they filed a copyright of the LICK or PHRASE..which to me would be a heck of a stretch.. The lick would have to be given a title of it's own with ownership back to the Artist with no mention of the song title, writer or publisher. Seems like a paperwork nightmare to me...and for what, to sell 45 copies ?

I spoke with one of the worlds top session players yesteday and just casually mentioned this thread..and the topic..he laughed..

Then he commented.."How would you communicate with a recording artist ?" .." And would you be expecting him or her to return your call about this ?" " There is no income or royalties associated with things you play on records"...

He wondered why someone would even think of this...

He then commented that if he had been payed by the LICK rather than the session Bill Gates would be working for him !

if you know a lick..tab it..share it..thats what a Forum like this is for..sharing knowledge..mention where it came from and the Steeler..thats Etiquette...And if you happen to be standing next to him or her at a Steel show and feel inclned to tell them what you would like to do that would be good too..thats Etiquette as well..

But before you go through all the trouble..check out the Ricky + Rebel site..There is a priceless amount of knowledge to be learned up there..this is a Steel Guitar resource that cannot be ignored...

Knowone has more respect for our recording Artists than I do..but somewhere common sense must prevail...

I have several fully tabbed E9th songs/courses with tracks,as many forum members do. I paid all of the pertinent copyright/ mechanical fee's. Are we thinking I should have contacted the artists on the recordings for permission to actually play the music that I just payed the appropriate fee's for ?

By the way, one of the tunes I have tabbed is also available from a few top notch Steelers..should I have not done my version because they already had one out ? And yet another version of just the signature licks is available on the Ricky/Rebel site for free. I doubt anyone of us have contacted Buddy to ask permission top play the lick..I know I didn't..But I have thanked Loyd, Buddy, Doug, Paul etc... and all the rest of them for all the great music they have shared with all of us that I can draw on..

Hellllooo...is anybody home?

"Dave's not here"...

Happy Thursday

t
ps: Can we all spell

C H U C K B E R R Y

or

E R I C C L A P T O N

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 January 2005 at 06:59 AM.]

Roy Ayres · From: Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I came to the realization many years ago that in some instances a particular lick that we have hard somewhere in the past will be stored in our subconscious memory, only to manifest itself later as "our own invention." The event that made me realize this ocurred back in the 50's when I was playing with Boyd Bennett's rock-and-roll band. Bobby Jones was out tenor sax man, and was one of the best (he finally wound up in the N.Y. jazz scene.) We were in a restaurant somewhere out on the road and one of our late recordings came up on the juke box. On his ride chorus Bobby played a unique and catchy two bar lick that sounded familiar to me. I said, "Bobby, where did you pick that lick up?" He said, "I dont know; it just came to me when I was improvising my ride." We passed it on off -- but a few minutes later our record of "Seventeen" (which was cut a year or so earlier) came up on the juke box. When it came time for the instrumental chorus, that same lick came through loud and clear on my guitar chorus. Bobby and I both looked at each other and laughed. That lick had "stuck" in Bobby's mind and he had played it in true belief that it was his own invention. As Terry Edwards said above about "the highest form of flattery", I felt honored that I had created a lick that was good enough for a great sax player to retain it in memory and play it a year later,

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