A Runaway Train of Misinformation

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 1 Dec 2004 7:21 pm

From another HOF BOD member:
Amen Herb!

JW

Tom Bradshaw · Post by **Tom Bradshaw** » 1 Dec 2004 7:33 pm

For those who didn't get it, the theme of my post here was to emphasize the pitfalls of "jumping to conclusions." The "runaway train" line was just a metaphor for that theme. I regret that no one got it or didn't choose to acknowledge it, and I provided many clues as to that theme.

To make my point, I mentioned how one person concluded that I was responsible for a relative of his not being inducted sooner into the HOF. When he learned that I had actually nominated his relative and presented the qualifying information to convince the Board that he deserved the honor, he began to feel differently. After I explained how his relative and I were close friends, how I had produced one of his albums, wrote the text for the HOF plaque, hired the sculptor, and had the plaque cast, he changed his mind completely. I just did the "homework" for him that he should have done before jumping on the "runaway train."

Throughout the 3 days that this topic has been up, only one person honored my request and emailed me for information on my position on various things. When finished, he expressed regret for posting. He and I have since exchanged emails about our mutual hobby or steel guitar restoration.

Maybe my problem is that I'm too straight forward toward those who post lies, draw false conclusions and post innuendoes about me without approaching me directly by email. Maybe I do my homework when it comes to following up on issues that bear on the steel guitar and its family of players. Maybe before I jump to conclusions I think twice.

Even the truth of my theme was demonstrated when Mike Cass changed his mind after getting some strait talk from Herb Steiner. Maybe if he contacted me and we had a sensible discussion he would not view me as the remaining Board member needing the "hatcheting." For sure, if he doesn't get my point of view or position on issues before drawing his conclusions, he will never know.

b0b: I hope you don't close this topic. I think that far more misinformation will continue to be posted that has no basis in fact. I think someone posted about "opening one's mouth and removing all doubt". I'd like to watch that happen.[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 02 December 2004 at 02:24 AM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 1 Dec 2004 7:42 pm

Oh, Well, Just what I thought.

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 1 Dec 2004 7:46 pm

Mike, thanks for your candor.

Tom,

It sounds like you didn't understand MIke's responses. The fact that you sent out unsolicited emails to the steel community pressing allegations against notible potential nominees is reason enough for you to recuse yourself from any deliberation in the consideration of HOF nominees. Whether your allegations are true or not doesn't matter. Your motivations for doing so don't matter. Even if you are completely correct in your allegations and your motivations are as pure as driven snow, the fact is that your public partisanship disqualifies you from making these sorts of decisions. I'm not saying you are breaking any sort of law or SOF bylaws, I'm just saying that it takes away from the entire process to have a partisan player on the board.

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www.tyack.com

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 1 Dec 2004 7:46 pm

These are my thoughts, FWIW. I’m amazed and stunned at the endless physical and emotional energy that has been devoted to the issue of putting these two players in the SGHOF. Clearly they did things in the past to unknowing steel players which they undoubtedly wish they hadn’t done. And just as clearly they continue to be treated like career criminals. These things happened in the past, a long time ago. They also stopped happening a long time ago and some amends, however big or small, were made. It is over and we have to move on. If they get in the HOF, fine. If they don’t, that also is fine. I wish that steel players could muster the crazy energy they put into this toward advancing the cause of steel playing in the rest of world. I doubt that half the players going nuts on this and other similar threads can play a decent blues, jazz, or rock solo to save their lives. I believe half of these players think that steel playing lives and dies with Ray Price shuffles. There is a big world out there and many players on this Forum, for all practical purposes, are ignoring it. If other musicians don’t take us seriously, it isn’t because of our “sense of history, tradition, loyalty and mutual cooperation with each other”, it is because we can’t (or won’t) play anything resembling modern popular music. A huge part of the outside world thinks the steel is played “whiny” and “slow”, and we are so self-absorbed with crap like the SGHOF, tuning methods, and other endlessly debated stuff that no one is listening to what is happening out there. We are falling behind as the musical world keeps reinventing itself and we are stuck arguing about this crap and playing our shuffles. That’s all I have to say and thank you for listening. .. Jeff

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Jeff's Jazz

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 1 Dec 2004 7:49 pm

Tom, dont you dare assume whats changed in my mind or not! This is just more obsfucation and literary ledgerdemain from you. Youve said on more than several occasions that as long as youre on the board, Julian and 'Reece dont stand a snowballs chance of getting in the HOF, Correct?? Not correct?? How about them purloined courses, huh? I dont see any response from you to those charges. Just a feeble plea to b0b to rescue yer slanderous ass to avoid a well thought out and very crafty trap set for you by someone a whole lot smarter than me.
You want respect? Answer Fred's post!! Perhaps responding to innuendo is beneath you,but generating it certainley seems to fit you well. If I was 'Reece Id've sued your ass for all I could get and laughed all the way to the pawn shop! If I was Julie Id haunt you till you had to seek professional help; not a bad idea for you, really.
Hmmmmm?? guess I am a tiny bit vindictive after all

Jeff,
if it werent for those Ray Price Shuffles you so carelessly discard as dated or beneath you,you wouldnt know steel guitar from fly fishing line, and RR would be just another guy playing in church! What do you surmise kept the steel guitar alive during Elvis and the Beatles?? Pete Drake?? Oh,I think not! Ray Price, Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day...thats who you owe for the priveledge to sit there and bash what you obviously dont even suspect,much less cant play.
If you were trying to get my goat you succeded. You can take shots at me all you want,Im an easy target. But you start that kind of crap and you'll get a whole world of hurt down on you in a big hurry,son.
How about that head cuttin' contest?? Are you man enough to set up next to me,pal?? .......again, I think not!!
We'll kick 'er off with "Lester Leaps In" followed by "Windjammer", "Blue Trane" and
"Dizzy Atmosphere". Im sure that being such a splendid jazzer, you know all those tunes, right?? Then a little Muddy Waters, maybe Blind Willie McTell, and some J.B. Hutto?? How about OBS to complete your humiliation, huh?? 140 bpm, whaddya say, pal?

Get down on your knees tonite and thank God for Byrd, Leon,Joaquin, Speedy, Noel,Emmons,Day,Myrick,Rugg,Green,White,
Hughey,Garrish,Maness,Jernigan and
Mr.Ray Price. Without them, youd be irritating someone on some other forum and the steel guitar would be something you might see in the back of some old music store, all dusty and forgotten.[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 01 December 2004 at 09:19 PM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 1 Dec 2004 8:33 pm

No one has mentioned Pete Rose. Are we not talking about the Baseball H.O.F. He was a great ball player.Should he be in the baseball H.O.F? I'm sorry this is the Steel Guitar Forum, I pressed the wrong key

Joe

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 1 Dec 2004 8:40 pm

Personally I think I should be nominated to the SGHOF. I'm a decent picker, I'm giving Artisan lap steels as Xmas presents, and I've taught at least 6 people to play "Sleepwalk". What more could they possibly want?!?

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Rick Alexander
57 Fender Stringmaster T8, 57 Fender Champ, Remington Steelmaster D8, 47 National New Yorker - Music Man and Peavey Amps . .

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 1 Dec 2004 8:54 pm

a sterling credit report and plegding allegiance to the God of acceptable tone should do it,I would think

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 1 Dec 2004 9:39 pm

I was just thinking of the Pete Rose incident as well. Maybe some of that mentality as leaked over to the SGHOF.

Dave

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 1 Dec 2004 9:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>4. Have you been the defendant in, required to participate in, or settled out of court, a legal proceeding brought by the action of a prominent steel guitar player, relative to your not paying monies for materials you reproduced and marketed?

5. Have you been a defendant in, required to participate in, or settled out of court, a legal proceeding based upon your written and oral wrongful derogatory accusations and remarks made about a prominent steel player and his business activities, where you later admitted publicly on this forum that you had been wrong ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to hear a response to these questions.

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www.tyack.com

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 1 Dec 2004 10:21 pm

Herb,
you defininetly seem affended by my simple , straight forward questions. Why? Is the "board" above questioning?

I don't remember ever calling "your name" in my posting. I didn't even know you were/are a board member (nor do I care or am impressed). Apparently you have something against me "personally" though, eh?" Herb, "I" have nothing against "you" personally.

My questions were in the context of this particular topic and were formed in hopes that they might help someone understand the SGHOF board and how it operates better. I actually didn't need to go to the SGHOF website nor needed the answers myself. Frankly, I don't give a crap! But since I was reading along on this topic I felt it might be interesting to get some interest started in just how and what the board does.

Herb, your quote: By the way, the "steel guitar community" doesn't honor an inductee selected by the SGHOF, the Board does. The decisions of the Board reflect the opinion of the Board, not the amorphous "steel guitar community." The SGHOF is a private organization, and who is and isn't on the Board is the business of the Board itself. People don't seem to get that straight. End of quote.

Herb, you definitely have helped me to understand just what the "boards" position apparently is and how through you as a self appointed spokesmen, have made us all now painfully aware of the boards real lack of interest in what the steel community as a whole (who without it, there would be no SGHOF)thinks.

Qoute: "Yeah, get personal" End of quote.

How is asking a few questions getting "personal? You are the one getting personal. You are the one now attacking me.

Quote: Work to hurt Scotty, Winnie, Herb, Bob Maickel, dis Jeff Newman's memory... " End of quote.
" Work to hurt?" I'm not working to hurt anyone. Dis'ing? Why did you have to bring Jeff into this? You mentioned his name not me and I fine that quite "tacky" on your part.

Quote: "Frankly, I'm tired of this bullshit; the SGHOF is a very, very small part of my involvement in the steel guitar world." End of quote.

Well, Herb. If it really is, then what are you getting so worked up about? I can understand why Tom might be, but I'm somewhat supprised at your attitude. However, if the shoe fits...

At no time was my posting an attack on you personally, Herb. Like I said, they were just questions. I figured somoeone else might be interested in the answers without having to leave the topic.

So... if the "board" is above "a little questioning, then I'll have to agree with Mike C. Maybe it is time for a little "board house cleaning."

And lastly my friend, "my" final words were... quote: " ADR (all due respect) to those deserving. End of quote.

Herb, which side of that remark do you reside on? That choice is up to you.

Have a great day.

Dave

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 1 Dec 2004 11:07 pm

Dave, I'd answer you in email, but I see your email is not available to the forum, so I'll answer you here.

I wasn't "attacking" you, though it seems I had a testy attitude, no lie. I don't mind answering questions I can answer, that I have the answer to; I did that, although I'm not the spokesman of the Board, self-appointed or otherwise. I'm either saying the facts as I know them, or stating my own personal opinion. The first part of my post was factual, the second half was my somewhat testy opinion on a part of your post that set me off.

One factual thing that perhaps you've objected to is my my saying the "'steel guitar community' does not honor the inductee, the Board does" I did not mean that the opinions of members of the community are lost on the Board, or that the Board doesn't read the material sent to it, but that it's the Board that votes on the inductees and makes and presents the awards. What is incorrect about that?

What I objected to is what seems to me to be, as I said earlier, your rather spiteful suggestion to the steel community

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If the selection (or "none selection" as the case may be) of a Hall of Fame inductee is not favorable to you then "do not support the governing body of the Hall of Fame!"
In other words, just don't buy the products offered by those in charge. Hit them where it hurts, the money they make off of it.

Not throwing any stones here...just asking questions worth thinkin' about.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know how you can suggest hurting the business of the Board members on the one hand, and then claim you're not throwing any stones. To me, that is disingenuous, like saying "hey, I could suggest ways y'all should punish these Board members, but that's just not my style."

Maybe I'm too damn sensitive. I work hard, I try to make a living as a steel player by offering value for my pay, either with products or my picking. As do you, I'm sure. The HOF is a small part of my involvement, but I do take the responsibility seriously. Like I said, I was surprised and rather taken aback at a suggestion like that from someone who knows how difficult it is to make a decent living in the steel guitar world. That statement was what got my goat. And I'm just flat wore out that the Board was once more was apparently being villainized and painted with a broad brush. These guys are not only some of the pillars of the steel guitar world (IMHO), they're also my friends. As is Maurice Anderson, btw, who's invited me to be a guest at his home.

I definitely was disagreeing with you Dave, but I was not attacking you. If you felt that way, I'm sorry for that and you do have my apology.
Herb[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 01 December 2004 at 11:25 PM.]

Bob Storti · Post by **Bob Storti** » 2 Dec 2004 4:45 am

Amen Jeff! I think you have expressed the feelings of a lot of us other players. What a pile of Crap!

Bob

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 2 Dec 2004 4:52 am

I haven't seen so many sour grapes since my local supermarket had a blackout.

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 2 Dec 2004 5:43 am

Jeff, you do make a great point. But, this is a forum and this is some of what takes place on forums. If you talked to, or could talk to the players that have not been put in the SGHOF, they could care less. They know/knew who they were as pickers and knew/know what the steel guitar community thought /thinks of them. It's their playing that makes them great not if or when they are put in the HOF.

Fred, I dought anyone would take your test. But, you do make a great point. How can one be on the HOF board if they have wronged the steel guitar community?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 Dec 2004 6:31 am

I have been watching this thread, and the other about Julian... and generally cringing.
I saw this thread before anyone else responded, and thought "Here we go"
And so it happened.

Why not just have a thread for the Steel Guitar Forum HOF.

1 vote per person per week, honor system, no stacking the vote.

Only post ONE name, not a list,
This makes you REALLY decide who was best./ most infuencial

No list of credits or points for or against,
that can be discussed elsewhere
A running tally every 30-50 posts

And a corner of the forum where this tally would rest for all to see.

This would diffuse some of the rancor,
and also be a more popular method,
and still have some historic validity.

You could in another thread propose someone and discuss it, and solicit other votes.

Over time double voting would eventually and naturally push the cream to the top.

But ALSO it would prevent any ONE person from being blamed for bias....
since it would all be totally transparent.

it is relatively easy to set up another page for this, and a SGF-HOF moderator going in occasionally to check the talley.
_______________________________

I have seen references to Julian "looting a steel club" and only one sideways reference to it actually being witnessed, and in that case also apparently forgiven...

So unless someone wants to STAND UP, and publicly say " I caught him in person and it is all true."
Then all others should just SHUT UP.

If... IF it did happen, and there is someone who knows,
and they are known to know of it,
but THEY do NOT want to confirm this,
because they KNOW it was an aberation,
and it is forgiven...

Then all others should SHUT UP.

Sometimes basicly good people have bad days and hard times.

In the spirit of hurting steelers, living or dead.
If it is of legal nature, and it wasn't proved on court it isn't true.. PERIOD.
____________________________________

I have seen here also more than a few personal attacks,
some apear to be from people disagreeing on other points,
but being tarred from the anger displaced by others.

In particular I saw Jeff Lampert stomped on..
and I for the life of me can NOT understand why...

But I will note... after returning from ISGC and seeing Buddy and many others,
I saw Jeff play in person, and he would stand up to ANYBODY I saw on the big stage.
In any style.

He scared me with his playing,... right after I had seen many of the best. in St Louis
He plays country real fine, shuffles too.

But he is also an advocat for the 'Advancement" of thge PSG,
Not the erasing or negating of it's historical basis.
I feel he is owed an apology.

Actually I feel MANY on this thread are owed apologies...

On the other hand several people have made valid points in many posts,
and gone a bit too far in others.
I wanted to second a number of posts,
but then saw people go pear shaped later,
so now I won't...

But in a word.. CHILL you guys.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 December 2004 at 06:55 AM.]

Post by **b0b** » 2 Dec 2004 7:50 am

In an open letter to Tom, Dan wrote:

The fact that you sent out unsolicited emails to the steel community pressing allegations against notible potential nominees is reason enough for you to recuse yourself from any deliberation in the consideration of HOF nominees. Whether your allegations are true or not doesn't matter.

I never received such an email. "Unsolicited email" is a fancy word for spam. Was there really a spamming about this, or were those emails actually reponses to requests for information?[This message was edited by b0b on 02 December 2004 at 07:52 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 2 Dec 2004 7:54 am

Mike, first of all, I don’t know where in my thread I was “taking shots are you”. I know that you are a monster player. That isn’t the point. It’s easy to defend the honor of all the great players and great singers of traditional country music. But you know perfectly well what I am getting at. If YOU are happy with the steel guitar being mostly used to play traditional country music in the style of the masters, that’s fine. But the rest of the world isn’t like that. Electric guitar has advanced 100 times beyond what it was back in 1960. Listen to players like Steve Vai and you’ll see what I mean. They are playing stuff that was unfathomable back then. Steel playing hasn’t advanced that way, at least not to any big degree. And spending inordinate amounts of energy on subjects like the SGHOF is a big distraction to that. And that was my point. My position may not be popular, but it’s the reality. And while you are well-versed in many styles, I stand by my claim that half the posters who are expending all this energy on these threads are not playing stuff to put themselves in the mainstream of what is being played out there (other than country music, of course), and you defending this situation doesn’t push anyone to do anything about it, other than to continue spending their energy racking their brains over the SGHOF issues. As far as your challenge goes, I think you should come to New York City, and jam with a couple of hot blues and jazz players. Take a monster steel player and match him up to a run-of-the-mill hot guitarist or horn player. That’s the test. Unless you play like Coltrane or Django, you may have trouble because hundreds of guys around here do. And virtually no steel player can. And instead of just defending our traditions, someone with your influence could be telling steel players to get out there and start playing this stuff. They’ll listen to you a lot sooner that to me. .. Jeff

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Jeff's Jazz

Post by **b0b** » 2 Dec 2004 7:55 am

I'm closing this topic. People are yelling at each other, violating the spirit of the membership agreement. It's a lot easier for me to close this topic than to deny posting privs to half a dozen members.