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Topic: GreenTone |
Bill Cutright
From: Akron, OH
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Posted 11 Nov 2004 7:31 pm
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(I've followed the forum for a few years now, and, I'm not 100% sure that all these specifics have been asked and answered, so, here goes - and I apologize if this is old laundry)
With regards to Lloyd's tone on recordings:
Is there any amp reverb used when tracking?
Also, (To my ear) it sounds as if there is, typically, little, if any, echo effect used (but, I've wondered if it is just so subtle, or blends so well, as to be imperceptible(?)
At what volume level did/does Lloyd like to record at? Reason I ask: I have recordings of Lloyd on a few custom sessions and (again, to my hearing) it sounds like the amp is working pretty hard (for lack of a better description) - almost at at the precipice of beginning to break up. I'm thinking, if he was using a twin/w Jbl's, to get that sound would require the amp volume to be in the 4-5 range, and, that would be pretty loud(?). But, then I've wondered if it could have been the mic/board pre amp settings.
Has Lloyd developed a mic preference?
What about favorite studio? I'm sure that most are excellent, but I'd like to know if there are any that stand out as being especially easy to get a great sound and were especially conducive to creativity (favorite engineers?). On the other side, any not so perfect situations, and, what happened?
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Ricky Davis
From: Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2004 9:12 pm
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Hey Bill; Lloyd most always records with a Fender black-face twin with a JBL D-130. There have been some small variations in that he may use another Fender amp and using the reverb on the amp mostly or a little and using the RV-3(not sure if he used that on his latest "Revisited") Yes the amp does get heated up pretty good when he records; not sure about the mic(and not really that important..ha).
There were some variations through the years(like on the Kentucky Thunder Ricky Skaggs project..ah..ha); but that's about the jist of it.
I'm sure Lloyd will see this post and then email me some more specifics; as he does like to be exact in proper information; but what you hear man; is Lloyd Green recording with a Sho~bud through a Fender/tube amp(that's the Green combination) and anything else that might be there has little to do with and is over-whelmed by what I just described as the "Green combination".
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
From: Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 11:02 am
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This Just In>
quote: Ricky,
Since Bill Cutright asked some specific questions to which I can relate I'm delighted to provide some insight.
I'll itemize my responses in the sequence he asked.
When recording I turn the reverb on my amp to about...2, the rest being added by the engineer from the board. This blend gives the best of all steel reverbs.
I use absolutely no echo/delay when recording, simply plugging from steel, to pedal to amp. Nothing in between. If you ever hear any echo on something I'm playing it has been added after I left the studio.
When recording I never turn my volume past 3. Even then I use no more than 1/2 to 3/4 of the pedal taper.
During the 2 years I've been recording again I've used exclusively, my Sho-Bud LDG #1. My instrumental cd, "Revisited", was recorded with one Hot Rod Fender Deluxe with on 15" D-130F JBL speaker. Soon after, I found my sound connection to the past, when steel used to sound so good on records, a Black Face Fender Twin (not a re-issue, but the real thing) which I had cut down into a head and which I use with my never re-coned 15" JBL.
I have no mike preference but I always, with a smile, ask the engineer to record me flat with no EQ, add a little reverb to mine and turn me up. I already have my sound and don't require an uneducated engineer screwing with it (I don't tell them this last part).
My 27 years of experience in the recording studios have taught me that if you're playing good, the louder they crank it the better it sounds. The lower they put it in the mix the worse and more washed out it becomes, losing much of the nuance, tone and emotion.
If you're playing marginally or pedestrian....well you know there's not much can be done for that handicap.
I have no favorite studio but in my judgment the best modern recording engineer for steel is John Kelton, Alan Jackson's man, and with whom I played steel on his first recording date in Nashville many years ago when he was only 18 years old.
But the best engineer of my big era, 1960's, 1970's and thru the mid 1980's was unequivocally, Al Pachucki. Al, among thousands of recordings, mixed most of the Charley Pride music, including the "Live at Panther Hall", Paycheck's Little Darlin' records and was Elvis's engineer.
Creativity and originality in the studio used to be a desireable and required trait. While there have been session musician(s) who have stated on this forum that nothing new has been created since the masters (an outrageous statement since I never heard Mozart, Bach or other B's play anything resembling Brumley's "Together Again", Weldon's "I'll Come Running" or my "Farewell Party" or "Borrowed Angel" or Hughey's "Look at Us").
I'm not much interested in the pedal, amp or steel of the week, but rather in ideas and originality. All of those other things are ultimately distractions. It's not enough to play as many notes in a short phrase as possible, that's just part of learning to play the steel. When one learns to play steel well enough and understands the mathematical changes and possibilities on his/her particular set-up at that point the focus changes. Then the question becomes, "Can I learn to play music now, not just patterns and fast doodling"?
The last steel guitarist I was influenced by was Jerry Byrd. He had all the elements figured out as to how to become an artist; tone, intonation, being in tune, emotion and originality. Nobody has stated it better and, like him, I never wanted to sound like anyone other than myself and be the best I could be. Neither did Curly Chalkler and neither did Emmons, but most of all, neither did Jerry Byrd.
Besides, when I was recording 500 to 600 sessions a year for more than a decade, had I been playing like anyone else those numbers would have dropped dramatically. I was told by Grady Martin, who was leader on everything when I started recording in 1964 that if they wanted ____ or ___ they would call them. That told me to play my ideas or I would soon be back selling shoes! I found "The Bridge Washed Out " sound soon after and Grady said one day in the studio, "Now that's the way it should sound and be played". It was the first of many new ideas for me to record.
So ultimately, creativity in the studio depends on a number of factors; a good engineer, great musicians off of whom to play (and today all of the sessions players are great), a good song, a good singer, good equipment and most importantly, belief in yourself and your ideas and the freedom to play music the way you hear it in your head.
So far most everyone I've worked for lets me do just that.
Lloyd Green
Thanks Lloyd for your wonderful description of details for us HUGE Lloyd Green Fans. Great History to be repeated; can only happen through learning of the True History, and thank you Lloyd for giving us that.
Ricky |
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Walter Stettner
From: Vienna, Austria
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Rick Johnson
From: Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 11:26 am
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Lloyd
Simply amazing at your ability
to recollect your busy carreer.
I know I speak for a lot of players
when I say, "I'm glad you are here
with us" on the Forum.
Thanks to Ricky Davis too
for posting.
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Rick Johnson
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Jon Light (deceased)
From: Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 12:18 pm
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Thank you. |
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John De Maille
From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 12:36 pm
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Now, in all honesty, where could you find that kind of info and insight, anywhere else? A huge thank you to Lloyd, for bestowing on us, those pearls of wisdom. And a huge thank you to Ricky, for sending them along. This is the greatest musical venue in the world. The posts on here, amaze me every day. |
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Dan Tyack
From: Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 12:47 pm
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I just heard Lloyd's playing on the Johnny Paycheck tribute CD. His playing on the "Touch My Heart" cut shows that Lloyd is still at the top of his game as a session player: playing parts that are at the same time totally original and also fit the music like a glove. That's the kind of playing that will cause a producer to say "a chorus isn't long enough for your solo, keep on playing!".
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www.tyack.com
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James Pennebaker
From: Mt. Juliet, TN
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 1:26 pm
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Lloyd Green is my all time favorite steel guitarist, bar none. To be able to get direct comments from him is just overwhelming. Many thanks to you Ricky Davis for getting Lloyd's input and to bOb for this forum.
JP[This message was edited by James Pennebaker on 12 November 2004 at 01:27 PM.] |
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Clyde Lane
From: Glasgow, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 3:16 pm
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After reading Lloyd's words I still don't want to play or sound like me. I want to play and sound like Lloyd Green.
Clyde |
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Anders Brundell
From: Falun, Sweden
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 3:18 pm
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I get more inclined for every year to think that there’s something more than just physics, like string brands, amps, settings and so on, behind the really great player's sound, like Lloyd's. Lloyd must have a world record of tasty runs and emotionally expressful playing; I still listen to lots of his old stuff and noone I've heard have ever done anything better. Some break even with him at times, but noone have beaten him, in my opinion.
I asked him about this many years ago when he was kind enough to give an interview and play several songs for me at his home, and despite I was a bit persistent I’m not convinced that he really could explain - or even know intellectually - where his playing properties and all tasty stuff comes from, into his mind.
I guess we’re halfway into philosophy here; anyone can explain how a lick is played but no really great picker seems to be able to explain how to play really tasty and expressful, even though he can do it himself and I can see and hear what he’s doing. I can play some of Lloyd’s stuff note for note, but it always comes out far below the level where Lloyd has been playing for decades. I can perform the physical picking fairly good at times, but there are qualities (properties) in Lloyd’s playing that just isn’t there when somebody else is playing the very same stuff.
And that drives me bananas! I wanna play like Lloyd and all the other masters!
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erik
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 4:39 pm
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Everytime I listen to Revisited I hear something new. Lloyd Green is a true Master Of.... Music.
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-johnson
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Farris Currie
From: Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 8:01 pm
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THANKS RICKY AND Lloyd,i'm still listening to Charlie Pride in person,i've spent many yrs.playing along trying to learn it.I still get chills when Charlie says ah Lloyd and he hits that Just between you and me.It just don't get no better!!! thanks guys
farris |
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Lem Smith
From: Long Beach, MS
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Posted 12 Nov 2004 9:54 pm
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Wow...having a venue such as this, where you can get it straight from the likes of Lloyd Green, Buddy Emmons, Paul Franklin, etc... truly amazing, and something we should all be very grateful for!
Sure wish I'd had access to this kind of info when I was beginning the steel. It sure would have helped prevent a lot of mistakes that had to be "un-learned"!!!
Lem |
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David L. Donald
From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 13 Nov 2004 2:38 am
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Yes thank you Lloyd ;
for the info, and participating in this medium too.
Quote: |
in my judgment the best modern recording engineer for steel is John Kelton |
This does make me ask the question, what mic and placement does he favor for your recording?
I don't often disagree with Ricky,
but mics do matter big time in recording anything,
including steel.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 November 2004 at 02:39 AM.] |
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Drew Howard
From: 48854
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Posted 13 Nov 2004 6:43 am
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Great stuff! Sets the record straight.
Drew
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Fessenden D-10 8+8 / Magnatone S-8 (E13)
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Ricky Davis
From: Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2004 10:03 am
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David; I do agree with you that Mics make a huge difference in recording any and everything>BUT Lloyd Green.
Ricky |
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David L. Donald
From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 13 Nov 2004 12:51 pm
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I have four recordings of Lloyd :
Revisited, Remember When Red Kilbey and a much older solo album.
Same tools and technique on his end.
but the sound of the recording is much better now. |
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Ricky Davis
From: Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2004 5:17 pm
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This just in on that>
quote: "While I don't know what type of mikes John Kelton uses, he used two on my open back speaker cabinet. I just made certain where the front one was placed; about 6 inches from the speaker and a couple inches to the left of center. That's the sweet spot on a JBL for recording. The other was placed about two inches inside the cabinet in the rear."
Lloyd
Thanks Lloyd for the description of the recording proceedure.
Ricky |
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Greg Simmons
From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave
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Posted 14 Nov 2004 7:19 pm
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Lloyd, thanks for taking the time pass on these details
Just wanting to ask about your tone control settings (treble, mid, bass) on your Fenders?
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Greg Simmons
Former custodian of the Unofficial Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
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Ricky Davis
From: Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2004 7:43 pm
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quote: Ricky,
This is for Gregg Simmons on the Greentone thread.
My amp settings on my Fender Twin are currently: Treble- 3 3/4 Middle-5
Bass-6.
Lloyd G.
How about that for a quick response..ha??? |
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Greg Simmons
From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave
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David L. Donald
From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 15 Nov 2004 12:46 am
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Thanks Lloyd, that is very interesting for me.
Be well |
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Chuck McGill
From: An hour from Memphis and 2 from Nashville, R.I.P.
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Posted 15 Nov 2004 4:02 am
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Classic reply. How true that the latest and
greatest gadget or steel is just a distraction from playing good music. Many of
us spend way too much time trying to find that elusive sound that we forget to listen to the music we produce.
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Chick Donner
From: North Ridgeville, OH USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2004 11:13 pm
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All well sqaid above; one time in the '70's I THINK while at Tootsies, after many (many)beers, Henry (Hank) Corwin (THEN of the Jim Ed Brown show), said of Lloyd, "Lloyd
Green has the particular ability NOT TO SOUND LIKE HIMSELF.
BTW, Hank has a masters degree from Julliard. |
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