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Topic: Pro Universal Player, how many are there?? |
Ernie Pollock
From:
Mt Savage, Md USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 5:59 am |
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I recenty had a steel playing friend, who will remain 'unnamed' tell me that all the times he has been to Nashville [most of that time on Broadway] he has never seen anyone playing a 'Universal' tuning. I was just wondering how many are playing those that are pro's?? My friend looks at the Universal as a completly different instrument from the D-10's, which I don't think is so, since I have wandered back & forth beteen both types. I know the D-10's are still the most popular, but there just has to be a few guys playing Universal & I need someone to back me up here!!
Ernie Pollock 
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Bill Myrick
From:
Pea Ridge, Ar. (deceased)
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 6:09 am
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Scott Henderson who plays for The Lee Mace Ozark Opry at Osage Beach, Mo. plays the living fire out of a Dekley Universal !!!
I recently had the pleasure of hearing him do a rendition of "Night Life" in Siloam Springs (vocals and instramental) that made the hair on the back of your neck stand up.
He plays several instraments and if your in the central Missouri Lake of The Ozarks area, look up the show, you'll love it !! -  |
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bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 6:14 am
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| I would call Maurice Anderson and Jeff Newman a Pro. You can't hear either man and come away with any other opion than you can do it all on a 12 string. I know this has been talked about to no end on the fourm, but the fact is you can do it all on the U12. Some people may like the D10 and that is ok. Some may like the U12 and that is ok too. Play what you like and enjoy playing and don't worry about what some one might say or play. I think part of the problem with the Pros in and around Nashville they have to copy whats on record in order to keep their job. I think some feel there guitar has to look like the guy on the record too. Did you see a S10 on a double frame before Mr. Green played one? Now they are common place. I think the same thing will happen to the 12 sring. Some guy maybe a Franklin, Emmons, someone we all look up to will go in the studio with a 12 string and make hit records. Then, the masses will follow. Then we can say we were Uni before Uni was cool. [This message was edited by bob drawbaugh on 21 March 2004 at 06:17 AM.] |
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Jim West
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 7:11 am
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| David Wright ain't too shabby, 'course you got to be able to put up with him. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 7:31 am
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None finer than Bill Stafford!!
I venture to say that IF Buddy Emmons had started on a universal, D-10's would be rarer than universals are today. There is nothing that can be gotten on a D-10 that cannot be gotten on a universal.
Very respectfully to the player mentioned above, the two guitars are not radically different. They are so close that once learned it melds the two together like mashed potatoes and gravy.
And the universal can do things the D-10 can't. 2 extra strings alone give it an edge. And there is more.
carl |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 11:25 am
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| I think it's more of a Texas and West Coast thing - perhaps we're not so caught up by tradition.But Doug Livingston,Greg Leisz,Al Vescovo,Marty Rifkin,Bobby Lee,David Phillips,myself,and of course the ubiquitous Mike Perlowin and several others all play some form of universal tuning.I would say fully half of the steel players I know of in Los Angeles play a universal.I don't put myself in the company of Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin but I and the aforementioned players often come damn close to making a living playing steel and that makes us "pros" I guess I can certainly play anything I need to play on a U-12 and I don't see it as any type of compromise tuning whatsoever.The only limitations I have are within my own musicianship.And not once has any contractor or band leader ever mentioned tunings,number of necks,etc. All they are interested in is what I can play. -MJ- |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 11:52 am
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For what it's worth, I don't think that I play a universal tuning. I would call my 12 string tunings extended E9, instead of universal, because my 9th string is D, and my low string is E. b0b has them (sort of) at: http://b0b.com/tunings/ebovine.html
And Al Vescovo plays a fancy 12 string (and now a 14 string) C6 that I also would not call universal.
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| And not once has any contractor or band leader ever mentioned tunings,number of necks,etc. All they are interested in is what I can play. |
That's very true, at least here in Los Angeles, where very few people have ever seen a steel guitar. But one exception: a composer who used to hire me a lot said "I like you because you have two of those things", pointing to the two necks. He didn't notice that I had frets on the back neck (like Gene Fields) and had never played it on his shows.
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 12:19 pm
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I wouldn't really call Greg Leitz a U12 player. He does still own one though.
B.J. Cole is a pro by anybodies standards and he plays a U12 that is basicly the Newman set up.
Bob
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 4:27 pm
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Ernie-There is a lot of players who are playing professionally, that use S12 Universals. Most are not in the top Pro listing, but plenty are. I can think of two here right in our state of Michigan.
Joe Wright and Larry Bell. These are both Pros in my book.....al
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 4:44 pm
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I don't play a universal tuning at all, Michael. I play a 12 string E9th which has none of the C6th pedals. I use a D-10 for gigs that require C6th sounds.
Also, I'm not a "pro" by any stretch of the imagination. Just setting the record straight...
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 21 March 2004 at 04:47 PM.] |
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Bill Llewellyn
From:
San Jose, CA
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 4:56 pm
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| One can hardly say "U12" without mentioning David Wright. http://davidwright.us |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2004 8:52 pm
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| Yeah I know some of us play something that doesn't adhere to the strict definition of say - Jeff Newman's E9/B6.That's why I said "some form of a universal" In other words,trying to do it all with some kind of 12 string tuning.For instance,Doug has a few extra pedals and changes that take it a little past what most guys would call simply an extended E9.And Al Vescovo's tuning may be an extended C6 at rest but he has E9 sounding pedal changes somewhere in there. Likewise,I would say that David Wright and Reece Anderson play a universal 12 string tuning although it's a Bb6 at rest and some of their E9 type changes might even be on knee levers.Additionally, my definition of a universal tuning would also include the late Red Rhodes Eb6 which was a 4+5 10-string,Zane Beck's and Julian Tharpe's E6/9 12 & 14 string tunings and even Sneaky Pete's 8-string B6/E9 w/9+2.These guys' tunings are somewhat different in layout - nonetheless,they did it all on one neck which is the underlying concept to me. -MJ- |
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Ernie Pollock
From:
Mt Savage, Md USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 5:48 am
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Well, guys, its great to hear that I am really playing a steel guitar, even though it is a 'Universal' and not a D-10 or SD-10, I kind of thought the way most of you here are thinking. How folks get this stuff in there head is beyond me - but its true. I sometimes just sit back & laugh when people tell me this sort of thing, guess you all do too!! I would hate to think of what some would think of my old homemade 10 string B6th steel with 3 homemade knee levers on it, don't think any of the Nashville guys are playing anything like that, but its still a steel guitar, right?
Ernie
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Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 3:03 pm
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After Jr. Knight plays his Bb6 there is no doubt that EVERYTHING that is on the E9th is on the universal.
Yes, Maurice, David and many others mentioned above are heros of mine too. But Jr. proves that all of the sterotypical commercial licks are on the universal.[This message was edited by Bill Cunningham on 22 March 2004 at 03:04 PM.] |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 3:26 pm
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Maybe as you say..'It's all there' BUT does it SOUND the same...... do 12 strings have the same definition between notes as 10 do....
because I know for sure that as you get less strings, you get greater separation between notes !!!
FWIW
Baz
If you dissagree... just play a harmony scale on a six string and then the same scale on a 10.
Maybe because the strings are further apart, they interact less with each other.
www.waikiki-islanders.com |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 6:02 pm
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I believe songs played on the E9th part of the universal would sound identical by a given player. Songs played on B6 might be just a tad bassier due to the open string tuning being one note flatter than C6.
I doubt though that most ppl listening could tell the difference. The player might however. Bb6 players might be detectable if they played the same song on a C6 neck on a D-10.
carl |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 6:25 pm
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Notwithstanding that I borrowed a Maverick when I first started playing, I've always had a U-12. My first guitar (which i still own and use) was a universal, as was every steel I've ever owned.
Occasionally I sit down at a 10 string, and I always feel that half the guitar is missing.
(BTW I am not a professional musician. It's been years since I've gigged, and I doubt that I'll ever go back to it. I prefer to stay home and work on my recordings.) |
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Scott Henderson
From:
Camdenton, Missouri, USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 6:08 am
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I have played a U-12 for over 20 years. I don't know if you would call me a "pro" but i have made a living. in twenty years I have things like "it's just wrong" & " you can't do everything a double ten can do" (here's an oldie but goodie) once i went to a c6th seminar and a guy walked up to me and said "the E9th seminar was yesterday Boy" (didn't care for the boy comment)and i guess the one that bothered me the most was the when the polotics factor came in and I was told the steel world didn't like uni's cause they were cheaper to make then a D-10
back when i started a double ten was around 2500.00 and i bought my first uni,NEW for 1200.00. I have dealt with this sort of thing long time and with all do respect it's getting a little old. yes I can do anything on a universal that most folks can do on a double ten. and yes I own a double ten. and yes, to me it's no big deal what the tuning is I will play it.And i bet if the truth were known so does reece, Bill, Joe, Jeff, JR, and about amyone else who has a good knowledge of music ,tuning, and has a passion for the instrument not the tuning.
I read sterotypical i while ago. Well yep that about says it all. there are no restrictions with universals just with folks who won't give something different a chance.So with all do respect again play what you wanna play and don't sweat the opinions of others.
THANKS BILL FOR THE NICE WORDS YOU'RE A PRINCE SEE YOU IN SILOAM!!!
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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com
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Joerg Hennig
From:
Bavaria, Germany
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 11:12 am
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I am not a U-12 player (only dabbled in it for a short time) nor a pro, but I´d like to point out one thing:
To say that EVERYTHING that can be gotten on a D-10 can be gotten on a Universal is simply a false statement. What I´m referring to is, if you want to play classic C6 tunes that incorporate open strings in the key they´ve originally been recorded in. For instance, you cannot play Almost To Tulsa in F or Rose City Chimes in C on an E9/B6 unless you change the thing to F9/C6 (and the 3rd string would have a hard time with that). But I also know this is of little or no importance for most of today´s players.
Regards, Joe H. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 11:33 am
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| To answer this topic's original question: Not very many, at least in Nashville. I've been here 30 years or so and never even seen one. Just the 14-stringer that Julian Tharpe (and Chick Beakley, too, I think) played back in the 70's, but I don't know if that qualified as a Uni. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 12:26 pm
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I moved to Virginia from the West Coast about 18 years ago and I noticed right from the start that I was the only one around here playing a single neck U-12. In SoCal they were all over the place. U-12's, S-10's, extended E9's, etc. Like someone said before, It's mostly a Nashville and east coast type thing. You'll find more single neck players from Texas through to the West Coast. I know that there was a feud between LA and Nashville and maybe this is part of that. All in all, I prefer the S-12 but in my opinion it's not any better or worse than the D-10. It's all in the ability of the player and what he (she) would like to play. They both have good points and faults. Have a good 'un....JH
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 23 March 2004 at 12:27 PM.] |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 2:30 pm
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| "To say that EVERYTHING that can be gotten on a D-10 can be gotten on a Universal is simply a false statement" |
Au Contraire sir,
And very respectfully, you can put a simple "capo" under the strings at the first fret, IF one needs an open C tuning to play specific tunes like "Rose City Chimes". Same if you need the D chord at the 2nd fret for "Remington Ride"; or C# at the first fret for Jerry Byrd's "Steelin' the Blues".
Jeff Newman has often demonstrated the use of a steel guitar capo in the past. In one instance, he plays an entire song using a capo under the strings at the 12 fret and plays on both sides of the fret. Like Johnny Paycheck's, "Don't take Her, she's ALL I got".
carl |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 3:21 pm
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Most of us are more restricted by our own ability than by our choice of guitars. A U-12 can't do anything unless the player behind it knows his stuff. Same with a D-10.
It's pointless to argue that a U-12 can't "do" everything that a D-10 can "do", unless you've actually reached the limits of the U-12. Very few players have done that. Most U-12 players say that there's more in the tuning than they'll ever use. D-10 players say the same thing.
A note for Baz: the strings on my D-10 are closer together than the strings on my S-12. Still, what you say about audio string separation is true. I really don't know why the amount of audible string separation is greater with fewer strings. My pet theory is that it has to do with the shape of the pickup's magnetic field.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 4:44 pm
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Thanks b0b for addressing my point... I thought for a while that "Some fell on stoney ground"
It has puzzled me for quite a while as to just why the AUDIBLE string separation is so different when comparing 6-8-10 and 12 string guitars..!
And with respect to the Forum's Guru Carl...
I can hear the diference between D-10 and Universal 12..and if I can I'm sure the producers and top session men can also...
I think their perception could be that the D-10 is Nashville and Country, and the Universal is more of a 'West Coast' type of a thing..well that's how I see it!!
Baz
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