Value of nonpedal foundation for pedal steelers?

Gary C. Dygert · From: Frankfort, NY, USA

This may be an old topic, but I was wondering about steelers' opinions on the value of early nonpedal experience for pedal playing. Many of the master pedallers started with nonpedal. Do you think this still affects their playing? Does starting out on pedal steel make a difference? What do you think?

------------------
No-name lap steel and reso in E6 and E7

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Playing the 6 string lap steel my dad built for me, and then my 6 string Supro, let me learn a lot of bad habits at an early age. (And play in a bar at 16 :>)

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

It sure helps when you leave your pedal bar and legs at home.
Jerry

Rich Weiss · From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA

I really wish I would have started with a non-pedal guitar. The people I know that started without pedals are much better pedal players because of it. Being able to hit more cool, outside notes and advanced hammering techniques characterize these players abilities.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Wouldn't take anything for learning the various tunings and the need to bar slant on non pedal guitars. To me it is an incredible asset.

If I ever taught again, I would insist the student start on non pedal guitars. If they didn't want to, well..there are other teachers,

carl

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I took up non pedal years after playing PSG. What it does seem to do is teach the basic tuning first without confusing things. I think all the zillions of options on a pedal steel can actually tend to limit the way you think about arriving at your musical objectives. After playing the lap steel for awhile, I started looking at the pedals in a more logical way. Like having a "home row" on a typewriter.

I think alot of our hero's who started on lap steel had the advantage of actually learning the basics first. I think that's why they were able to develope their own style when pedals come to be.

Larry Robbins · From: Fort Edward, New York

I started out on lap steel,then dobro.The bar slants and different tuning sure helped
me learn some theory and whats where on the neck.And it made the transition to pedal steel much easier.Im convinced that it would have been much harder without the
"lap steel foundation" !

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

I started out on C6 8 string. I am sure glad I did. I learned where the notes are, playing positions, right hand technique, left hand technique, how to tune by ear and by tuner. Learned where the 1,5,4,6,and 2 chords are, how to get a minor and a minor 7. How to slant forward and backward. Chimes, harmonics...

Today I still enjoy playing T8's. I forces me to think about what to play and what not to play. Gotta have a plan.

I am deeply involved in learning SU12 and I am really glad I started on non-pedal. Who knows, I may go back.

Ron

------------------
Stringmaster T8, Fender Custom T8, MSA SU12

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

It's a really good learning process to play your pedal steel without pedals- to find the notes with the bar that the pedals or levers "bring to bar position". This helps me visualize what's happening when those pedals/levers are engaged. You can bet that the pioneers of pedal steel "saw" and heard what the pedals/levers would do BEFORE they existed-and the musical reason we have them. Logic, logic, logic!

Louie Hallford · From: denison tx

I started out on non pedal steel but don't think I am any better or worse for having started that way.
Yes I still enjoy playing a few slants but there is a lot of fairly young players working who probably played little ,if any lap steel, who can play circles around many of who started on lap steel.I seriously doubt if any of them suffered for not having started on pedal steel.

Mike Cass · Posted 26 Feb 2004 1:11 am

interesting thread..... from listening to various players over the years, it seems that those who come from non-pedals view them as embellishment, as opposed to those who started out with pedals. Those who lean more heavily on the pedals than the tuning itself seem to put less emphasis on bar glisses from fret to fret when playing a scale.Ive also noticed that some seem to use the pedals down or pedals up positions quite a bit as opposed to playing out of pocket. Additionally,some of those players seem to become more lick oriented when filling, as opposed to actually accompanying the singer.
Lloyd Green's adlib verses on the melody of "Almost Persuaded" on "The Hit Sounds" are, I think, great examples of a combination of both in and out of pocket playing.And I believe he started out on a Ricky'.
I started with 6 strings and a Zippo lighter so a bar was a big step up for me

When I got a couple of pedals, some of those awkward slants Id worked on to be able to play harmonized scales paid off. With the combination of pedals and slants I felt like I was starting all over again.....then knee levers showed up. Anyway, for me Im glad I had the no-frills education because I very rarely got lost when playing, and I credit that to learning to play the tuning as opposed to moving from pocket to pocket. It didnt seem to matter what key a song was in because I related to my part as to where my scales and chords laid without pedals.
Pressing a pedal was very useful though, as it would give me time to ash a cigarette

jmho, MC

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I think a non-pedal background helped a person concentrate more on the "music" and less on the "mechanics". However, this said, I would hate to have to give up the pedals and levers as I like to play those 3 finger grips that I can get with the pedal steel.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Today's pickers can sound anyway they choose but one does tend to notice that some of them are more mechanical "sounding" in what they present their listeners, rather than smoothly flowing sounds like Emmons, Green and Hughey who some times make it so difficult to hear them, that one can hardly be sure WHERE, WHEN or HOW they used a certain pedal in a given phrase. To me, that is artistry........

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I think that this question depends to some degree on the style of music being played. For instance, I'm don't think that a foundation in bluegrass dobro would help that much with playing E9 country steel. The right and left hand technique is pretty different, and the bar takes a while to get used to. Then there's the volume pedal, string spacing, etc. Not to mention the stylistic differences.

I think it would help a little bit, but so would playing regular guitar, or trumpet, or what have you.

On the other hand, a background in C6 lap steel would probably be helpful when learning C6 pedal steel. But I think that the reverse is also true.

I know that for myself, the technique and way of thinking about pedal steel has fed back into my dobro playing probably as much as the reverse, even though I've played dobro for longer.

The biggest change in my thinking recently has come from trying to learn C6 lap. The difference is in learning to play "closed" licks as opposed to the dobro style of playing mostly in one key. This has fed back into my dobro and pedal steel playing.

Some things do transfer quite well. Palm harmonics, for example. But then, they would transfer either way. Whether you learn palm harmonics on steel or pedal steel, should hardly matter.

I also think that since it's logically impossible for someone to do both--that is, it's impossible for someone to learn first on both steel and pedal steel guitar, we can't really be sure of the answer. For myself, I don't really see the steel guitar as the pedal steel equivalent of a bagpipe chanter; something that you learn first before you attach the actual bag part (or pedals, in this case). I think they're different enough--especially if we're talking dobro and not an E13 tuned 8-string steel, that learning one or the other first is probably not essential.

-Travis

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Mike Cass - I work about a mile from where they make a million Zippo lighters a month. Drive by the factory every day. They are always looking for new tales of how Zippos get used in non-incindiary applications. This is gonna be a fun story to relate.

My only hurdle to overcome is that, by starting on the 6 string with the "A" tuning (i.e. A C# E A C# E) 40 yrs ago, everytime I look at the fretboard I see G at the 10th fret instead of at the 3rd fret under E9th. Always have to take a moment to shift tuning gears in my head.

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 26 February 2004 at 11:45 AM.]

Mike Cass · Posted 27 Feb 2004 10:23 am

Ray, lmk how they take it @ Zippo, and please tell them thanx for me

btw, I had to hold that lighter "hinge up" so it wouldnt catch on the strings of course. As a result, I do remember a few scary moments when slanting that the cover opened up and I found my thumb on the striker. One time it did flame up on me, so there was some fire involved

David Doggett · Posted 27 Feb 2004 12:15 pm

Even if you start straight out on pedal steel, it is always useful to isolate the different ways of playing scales, harmonies and melodies for practice purposes. So you can practice playing the same scales, harmonies and melodies 1) without using pedals and knee levers, 2) using pedals, levers and all strings, but remaining at a single position or pocket (you will want to do this at all the major positions), 3) ignore the "chromatic strings" and use pedals and levers, but move around between positions (this is more a '50s and '60s style, but can be gorgeous). If you can do each of those 3 styles with facility, you can throw away the tab. You will be able to hear which style the pros use for each lick or passage and get it yourself.

P.S., I'm a long, long way from there.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think it's valuable. I played Hawaiian steel for 2-3 years before switching over to pedals. For me, it was much easier to learn the fundamentals of pick and bar control without having to think about volume pedals, foot pedals, and knee levers. It also taught me the value of different basic tunings, and where to find different chords and inversions along the neck.

Jimmie Misenheimer · From: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.

My true belief is that no matter how good of a pedal player you are, you will be a BETTER player if you are also a good lap steel, or straight steel player. I've played non-pedal for 39 years, and pedal for 36. Jimmie

Forum Index > Steel Players		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic