Do many steeler players today, sound ALIKE?

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

How many of you, feel it's difficult to recognize and identify many of today's top
session steel players? For me, Lloyd Green and Hal Rug have always been recognizable...but what about the rest? Is it because they're all trying to sound alike? Or, is it the equipment they've chosen controlling their sound? Just don't understand it? When I was growing up, each artist had an identifiable sound. Was that bad?

[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 23 February 2004 at 09:15 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Ray I think you are running up against one of the positive things from the forum,
in a less positive aspect.

In the old days many steelers jealously guarded their pet tricks ;
copedents or tunings, new pulls, etc.
And many were more or less self taught.
So they invariably sounded more individual.
And there were fewer of them known by the playing masses.

Now adays there is lots of TAB, most people know everyone else's copedents and there have become several standard things on most steels.

Now this isn't bad, but it DOES brush up against the wall of physical possibilities for players.

Since there are only so many notes available, even with 10+10 on a D-12
and only so fast you can move the bar and pick
a general high quality of most instruments and amps
recordings of dozens of seminal performances are available to most players
And the presure to learn and reproduce the top flight players licks every night for cover bands.

Add the relative stylistic limitations imposed for any particular genre of music.

It is not surprising that many have reached a sort of plateau of possible variations.

At that point to be differentiated becomes much harder.

But then again those that do are really smoking!

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 February 2004 at 02:17 AM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I appreciate your insite. Perhaps it's my tin ear that has begun to deteriorate with the ravages of time, but to me, "the tone" seems to be so similar. I've tried to figure whether it was the pickups, the amps,
the processors, strings or whatever. Some say the hands still control it. What say you?

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

..I assume you're talking about music for the masses on the radio since you mention the session players...I think it's just the way the record (CD)producers want the records (CD's) to sound..

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 23 February 2004 at 10:16 AM.]

Walter Stettner · From: Vienna, Austria

In my opinion, many in fact do sound alike today and it is hard to hear who is playing but...

I have the same problem with historical recordings from the 40's to the 70's.

There were (and are) great stylists in all times, Jerry Byrd, Don Helms, Speedy West, Little Roy Wiggins, Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Pete Drake, Ralph Mooney, Lloyd Green (and more!) and many players that were influenced by them, used their style, developed their own changes and added their own thoughts and ideas. I think it's the great stylists of all times that we immediately recognize, with many others (who nevertheless play great stuff!) we are not so sure.

I agree to David that the time of "adventure", that means experimenting with new tunings, new ways to play etc. is more or less gone, everybody who is starting to play today has tons of material to learn from while the players in the old days mostly had nothing but an old '78 record.

I have the feeling that the technicians in the studios, the producers and the labels participate a good deal in making the steel sound more uniform today than yesterday. Just consider Lloyd Green who was allowed to play the solo on "Remember When" exactly the way he wanted to play it, also the steel sounded the way he wanted. That seems to be very special today and was worth extra mentioning.

It would be interesting to know if the pro players have any control or influence on the final mix in the studio or if it is all in the hands of the technicians?

------------------

[This message was edited by Walter Stettner on 23 February 2004 at 10:29 AM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Ray, you sound exactly like Jerry Byrd.
Are you two trying to sound alike?

richard burton · From: Britain

The single biggest misfortune to befall the pedal steel guitar was the advent of the humbucking pickup. They suck the life out of the tone, taking all the individual character from recordings, rendering it almost impossible to differentiate the artistes.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

well I can tell ya this..

On the records I can tell ya it is getting hard to tell 'em apart anymore unless you are really in touch with the styles of Paul or Mike, etc...but those guys have an uncanny ability of playing different pretty much everyday to suit the requirement..

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 February 2004 at 11:02 AM.]

Ulf Edlund · From: Umeå, Sweden

I don't sound alike.

Reggie Duncan · From: Mississippi

I think I can tell Paul from Mike. Sonny G is recognizable. Dan D gives himself away ususally.
In the old days, nobody could fool me. Now, it is harder to tell. So many layers of music with steel buried within them. But, in a cool way!

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Richard Burton....you're really close to what I was questioning. Thanks for seeing it
and for responding.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

So this is what we get for not sounding like Jerry Byrd?

EJL

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Maybe because there are few of them?

There was a time when many top vocalist used the same studio steel player to be consistent to their particular sound. Or they used their road band which consisted of studio quality musicians. And there was a variety in styles and tone of excellent studio steel players to add a selected sound to a song. Probably more studios too.
DD

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Of the high profile players I must state that I can recognize Tommy White almost immediately. I believe Tommy as well as though already mentioned are capable of sounding much like someone else or they can be very identifiable if they wish.
Jerry

Louie Hallford · From: denison tx

Notice that most of the players listed above were in their prime during the 50's 60'70'and 80's. The fact that more players today sound more similar to other players ,Is largly due,IMHO, to the fact that there are many more skilled players today than there has ever been.Many of them can play note for note some of the best rides we have heard Emmons, Franklin, White, Rugg,et al play.

My final opinion is, power to anyone that can do it.I have no doubt if a player is good enough to learn even a little bit from these players ,or any other player,they are good enough to have developed their own bag of tricks along the way. Thats why steel guitar remains such a challenge to me as a non professional. I know what I am going to do for the rest of my life...try to play like Emmons,White ,Rugg, Hughey,Franklin and the list goes on.Their stuff is to good to trash can after just one generation.

Along the way I still hope to develop some style and licks of my own.

Matt Dawson · From: Luxembourg, Europe

Ulf,
You dont sound alike cos you got the best MSA on the block!
Matt

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

The same thing happened to rock guitarists, if you'll recall - Hendrix, Santana, Allman etc. were all instantly recognizable, but then the MBA's and record company execs began to use formulas for making hits and guitarists became valuable for their ability to dial in pre-defined "hit sounds." Who were the last original-sounding rock guitarists - Malmsteen, Van Halen, Knopfler, in the early 80's?

Chippy Wood · From: Elgin, Scotland

If anyone sounded like me then they are not musically inclined.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

The humbucking pickup is not the ruin of the steel guitar OR the standard guitar. It is just another tone.

The question is why today's players "sound alike". I am assuming that the inference is sounding alike on the recordings on the country charts.

These recordings come out of one place-Nashville. They are produced by a limited number of producers AND record companies, recorded by engineers who listen to each others work and played by steel players who are "hemmed in" the majority of the time by the formulas of the preceding songs on the charts that are hits. A lot of the steel use on these recordings seem to be relegated to just making sure the steel is in the mix somewhere and not really up front and standing out, sort of just a flavor. Anytime you are told to just play some pad stuff, simple fills and the like, the tendency is to be the master of the obvious and play those familiar E9ish things that pretty much every one does.

I don't think it is that all these guys sound alike as it is the fact that they are not encouraged to sound different on the recordings they do. Same in the standard guitar stuff you hear. The sound of a Tele and a Delux reverb has not changed in 40 years but that sound is still used a lot.

I personally put more emphasis on musically what is said, more than what a player sounds like.

Also consider that the recording process is so much different today than it was when some of the ledgends came along. Now a days pretty much everyone has the same looking and sounding gear to work with and the tones can be pretty "samey" sounding. In the 50s and 60s, engineers worked on handbuilt consoles and had such an individual effect on bringing the sounds to tape that you would likely hear quite a difference in the way one players instrument sounded from studio to studio. Also the amount of sonic jumbo in a track today is just massive compared to old tracks. The sound of the steel has to be tailored to being heard in the track and usually the way to do that is to thin out the lows and zip up the mids and upper stuff in order to heard over all the many layers of keys, synths, guitars, percussion, background vocals and such.

Just my 2 cents.

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

IMHO many of the players today sound very much alike because of the producers desires.
To me, the singers, songs and all sound very much alike. Seems to be very little personalization on anything anymore. Still,they are able to slide in a ride once in a while that blows me away.

However, when you get to hear the same steel players live,WOW what a treat. Then they become quite different from each other.

Bill Simmons · From: Keller, Texas/Birmingham, AL, R.I.P.

First IMHO, the younger generation of steel players are just incredible!

Secondly, the steel guitar is still a young instrument compared to the majority of other instruments and is still evolving.

Thirdly, since it has been mainly utilized in country music, we have to look at how country music and other musical styles have changed since the 70's. Country music is not the same as when many of my steel hereos where given the freedom to create their distinctive styles and signature 'licks'. The songs many times 'featured' the steel as a main instrument and not just a 'tonal filler'.

In the 70's, I was always amazed at how the Nashville musicians would come to a session--hear the songs played by the artist--make their charts--cut the song with great musical freedom and creativity. Meanwhile, the session had the strings and background singers all in the room cutting the song at the same time (albums were cut many times in three -- three hour sessions)--simply incredible...today, a lot is overdubbed and more pieced and defined what the steel will or not do.

By the way, my hat is off to Allan Jackson's team for 'featuring' my favorite, Lloyd Green, on "Remember When" (Lloyd played it exactly like I taught him). HA HA

Another factor 'in my opinion' is there does not appear to be as many truly 'distinctive' country stylists such as the Loretta's Charlie Pride's; Buck Owens; Conway's; Bill Andersons etc that allowed the development of their distinctive songs many times by the creative and "signature" steel guitar into's, turn arounds etc.

As much as I love great players who can play a solo from an Emmons, Green, Franklin, Dugmore solo etc, I truly admire the 'creator' of the solo/lick which at this time is why I love the Emmons, Hughey, Green, Franklin, Ruggs, Garrish, White;s etc.

Lastly, I believe the younger players IF given more opportunities will begin to create their own distinctive styes...there are many incredible younger players.

By the way, listen to Mike Johnson's incredible turnaround on Daryle Singletary's "I Never Go Around Mirrors." WOW!

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts...I must run and try to copy a lick one of my heroes created! Have a great day...

Franklin · Posted 24 Feb 2004 8:06 am

Different times bring about different results.....Paul

Joe Miraglia · From: Jamestown N.Y.

How many of you players say to other players- your not playing that the way Lloyd Greeen did it,let me show you.Or played every lick like the recording of the 60's just like cover or close to it. Every steel jam we all get together to play all those solos and runs like our hero did. ; Danny Boy: trying to get it just like the Big E. Today the same steelers say Oh I do my own thing I don't copy cover. My band trys to keep it close to cover. Boy, I'd like to play it like Paul does it. Some of you that do your own thing and say -I don't like what I hear or it all sounds the same,try some of Paul's licks or solos. On the contrary, I think there is more variety in styles of playing today--even to where the same player varies to sound like a different person. Joe

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

I have always purposely avoided trying to play like someone else, except for "hooks or signature licks" peculiar to a particular song that the audience expects to hear.

.....the upside of that is that it relieves me of the responsibility of not being talented enough to play like someone else!

I guess that's why I've always appreciated B.B. King's famous quote: "I never could play like anyone else, so I guess that's why I play like me.

www.genejones.com

Nicholas Dedring · From: Beacon, New York, USA

Is the question about "sounding alike" or about "playing alike"?

I feel like there are certain people who have a very distinctive sound... if I think it's Paul Franklin on a record, it seems usually to be so, for instance. Lloyd has a distinctive "sound".

So, is this about how the playing sounds, or about what is being played???

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