To my Christian steel playing friends..

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 18 Feb 2004 8:30 am

I think IMHO that people go to the bars to drink, get drunk, chase women most of the time.

...I disagree...I think they go to drink, get drunk and chase women all of the time...

...that's a given, that's what bars are for...

...and I believe that women, (who also fall into the category of "people") go not to chase women, but to be chased (rather than to be chaste)...

..I enjoy playing the bars...the music is good, and it reminds me why I quit drinking, and I need to be reminded lest I only remember the fun stuff...

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 18 Feb 2004 8:45 am

I hate to burst your bubble but Catholics were not the original Christians, Baptists were.

Not to burst any of y'all's ecclesiastical bubbles, but the original Christians were Jews. This is abundantly clear in the New Testament, especially Acts of the Apostles.

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CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 18 Feb 2004 8:52 am

quote:
---------------------------------------------
It is that little voice inside that says, "you should not do that". For therein lies the secret to overcoming sin and having joy in one's life. When one hears that "voice" and asks forgiveness is when life really takes on joy, peace and meaning.
---------------------------------------------Thank You Carl D.

Randy Pettit · Post by **Randy Pettit** » 18 Feb 2004 8:55 am

Hi Bob,
Not everyone who goes to a bar for a few beers and to hear some live music is a “sinner”, just as not everyone who sits in a church service is “saved”. Jesus was a friend to sinners, not of sinners. As was said earlier, your musical gift is a gift to you from God, to be used for His glory. If your playing in some of these rough places involves some type of ministry aspect, such as using your musical presence and talent to invite patrons to your church or to a bible study, then that would sound like a creative way to minister to sinners who might not otherwise darken the door of a church. Bottom line, though, if you feel guilty playing at some of these places because of the raucous behavior, etc…, it’s for a reason – you should probably stop doing it. Just my opinion – it’s really between you and God. The Holy Spirit will guide you through the study of the Scriptures.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Feb 2004 9:22 am

Herb,

IMO, you are correct. So is the person you quoted.

Just about ALL persons who converted to Christianity in the early days after Christ ascended to heaven, were indeed Jews. There can be little denying this. In fact one of the greatest Christian ministers of ALL time was Paul. When he was Saul of Tarsus, he was murdering "Jews" who had converted!

And there is NO question he was a Jew. So were the earthly parents of Jesus. This is two of many reasons NO Christian worth his salt can ever be anti-semetic; or NOT defend Israel. It would be the ultimate oxymoron.

For the Israelites are truly God's chosen people; and that land will NEVER be taken from them. EVER! He gave that land to them long ago. It is theirs alone. Any one who hates the Jew is arguing with God almighty. And his will.

I believe with every fiber of my being that one of the reasons our nation is sooooo blessed is because we are the world's true defender of Israel. God help us if that ever changes. Sadly there are powerful forces in this nation trying to change that as we speak.

Secondly, there were many Christian churches established LONG before the Roman church was established. If anyone denies this, they simply need to read the book of Acts (as you suggested dear friend).

Indidently for whatever it's worth, John the Baptist was NOT the founder of the Baptist church as has been stated by some in recent years. NO one knows for sure who founded it, but there is some evidence to suggest that it stemmed from Paul's ministry. I am one that will always believe this.

carl

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 18 Feb 2004 9:31 am

My pastor has always encouraged us to work in the "real" world. I think it is important to set an example among those who need it. I could isolate myself and only play with my church band and only work with Christian artists in the studio, but who does that help? While I am not highy evangelical, I have have had many people come to me to find the reason for my strength, happiness, long lasting marriage etc. and still made my living in the music business. Many of these have found the answer and come to know the Lord by my being "out there" to show them. If Christ were here now, I doubt he would be hanging with the chuch band, more likely he would be out showing sinners the light....

Adrian Wulff · Post by **Adrian Wulff** » 18 Feb 2004 9:37 am

If Jesus was around today, and a pedal steel player in a country band, would he only express himself in a church of his followers and believers or would he go out to the darkest, smokiest dive to reach those who need inspiration and comfort?

Picking to just the converted, or picking also for those in need?

Adrian

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 18 Feb 2004 9:57 am

...."For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them". (The Lord Jesus. Matt. 18:19, 20)

Joey Gaskins · Post by **Joey Gaskins** » 18 Feb 2004 10:03 am

As one who has played in many bars, drank,cheated and done about everything that can be imagined, I can cast no stone first. For myself I play where no alcohol is served. I prayed to God when I got my first steel and promised that if you teach me to play this thing I'll only play for you. I try to do whats right and being a musician in our church also I know others are watching what I do in other places. One of my greatest compliments came from a young teen after church one day when I was told, I want to be just like you. Hopefully, the mistakes I made won't be repeated.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 18 Feb 2004 10:53 am

Not to burst any of y'all's ecclesiastical bubbles, but the original Christians were Jews.

...well, of course that's technically correct, Herb, but ecclesiastically and not culturally or ethnically speaking, they ceased to be Jews the moment they became Gentiles, they couldn't keep a foot in each camp, so I think the argument is disengenious...just ask their mother, Sitting Shiva...

...

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 18 Feb 2004 11:18 am

I'm certainly no Biblical scholar, for sure. But the act of baptism has its roots in the Jewish tradition of mikveh, or ritual cleansing immersion.

In those days a Jew had to be cleansed before entering the Tabernacle (the Temple), and this was accomplished by mikveh, or the washing away of sin by immersion. This is what many feel "John the Baptist" was doing with his supplicants, including Yeshua, in the river Jordan. BTW, no one called him "John" during his lifetime, as his Hebrew/Aramaic name was most probably "Yochanan."

In modern times, when a non-Jew converts to Judaism, he/she is required to have a mikveh. Additionally, a modern observant Jewish woman is required to have a mikveh after each menstrual period.

The word "baptize" probably comes from the Greek verb "baptizein," which means "to dip, soak, or immerse."

I'd like for some real scholars, if any are here, to address the issue.

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Texas Steel Guitar Association

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 18 Feb 2004 11:22 am

Pat
A Jew who accepts Yeshua does not "become Gentile." A Jew is someone from the lineage of the Tribes of Israel, and one's spiritual beliefs cannot change that.

The Council of Jerusalem was about whether or not to allow Gentiles to become Jewish Christians, was it not?

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Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 18 Feb 2004 11:58 am

Well, Herb, I earned two seminary degrees over 20 years ago... so I'll try.

The Council of Jerusalem was over whether Gentiles would be expected to first convert to Judaism in order to become Christians (remember, up to this point, virtually all the new Believers were Jews). The apostles (who were Jews) said "no" (i.e. "why put a burden [the Law] upon them that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?") [I'm paraphrasing from memory, so I'm sorry if this is inexact.]

You'll remember that John the Baptist (who was certainly Jewish) was baptizing before the beginning of Jesus' ministry, so there certainly is a Jewish antecedent to baptism. John's baptism was a baptism unto repentance and a call to return to the One God, not unto faith in Christ. The church was technically not born until Pentecost, so the Christian church didn't "invent" baptism... however, it took on a new meaning after the church's beginning.

Most, if not all, Jews who convert to Christianity speak of themselves as being "completed Jews". They do not renounce their Judaism, but they see Christ as being the perfect fulfillment of the covenant made with Abraham.

Herb is right- "baptize" is from the Gk. word "baptizo" which means to dip or immerse.

We Jews and Christians have far more in common than separates us. We need to embrace, support and love each other.

So, in conclusion, I say again: If you feel ok about playing in a club, do it; if you don't, then do church (or synagogue) gigs only! I trust the Spirit (Ruach) to speak clearly to each of us individually.

Ok, we're back on topic

Rick[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 18 February 2004 at 12:10 PM.]

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 18 Feb 2004 12:07 pm

...I'm not a scholar either, Herb...I did say "ecclesiastically speaking", or spiritually, if you prefer...and I stated that I was not referring to ethnicity, or lineage of tribes if you will, which of course cannot be altered by a choice...

...what I meant was that I believe there are some things that you either are or you aren't, and you can't be both...I used to be a Methodist and I converted to Catholicism...now I'm a Catholic, not a hyphenated Methodist-Catholic, or a used-to-be-Methodist-Catholic, and that's not a bad thing to me, it's OK to be one thing, and to recognize that other people are other thing...

...Rick's post says that may not be the case for people of the Jewish faith who become Christians.....I posted some stuff before I saw Rick's post above, which is an educated post and hits the mark, so I edited my post...

...speaking of keeping it on topic, I would play to a bunch of drunks at a bar mitzvah and enjoy every minute of it...[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 18 February 2004 at 12:25 PM.]

tim duvall · Post by **tim duvall** » 18 Feb 2004 12:25 pm

I have read responses of people here using the illustration of Jesus going to the "sinners" and being among the "sinners". This is true..Jesus was condemned for "hanging out" with the sinners. But to try to relate this to being in the bars is ludicrous as far as I'm concerned. First, Jesus would not be in a country band and do you really think that Jesus would be singing music that condones drinking, cheating, lying, ect..? I feel that a Christian has no business being in a place such as a club, bar, ect unless they are really trying to win souls for Christ. The Bible says "Avoid the appearance of evil".."love not the world neither the things that are in the world"..."Come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord".

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 18 Feb 2004 12:30 pm

..where does the Bible say Jesus would not be in a country band?...

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 18 Feb 2004 1:23 pm

"We Jews and Christians have far more in common than separates us."
Jews becoming Christians, Christians becoming Jews. I so confused.
hmmm.. anything like cornbeef on rye, cornbeef on white

[This message was edited by Gary Lee Gimble on 18 February 2004 at 01:29 PM.][This message was edited by Gary Lee Gimble on 18 February 2004 at 01:30 PM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 18 Feb 2004 1:35 pm

...(quote from above)...So, in conclusion, I say again: If you feel ok about playing in a club, do it; if you don't, then do church (or synagogue) gigs only!....

....and then there are those of us who have been taught to "sing and make music in our hearts", and that musical instruments are not appropriate for worship, only for secular activities, (which does not include places such as bars that exist only for sinful activities)! I spent my early days in bars and clubs, and I never knew a musician including me, regardless of his faith, who was there to "save souls"...he was there for the money and for his love of playing.

So, where do we play with a clear conscience?

I am cognizant of the old testament scripture about stringed instruments and harps, but that is a part of the "Law" that new testament Christians have been released from!

We are all struggling in our individual quest to work out our salvation with fear and trembling as the bible says?

...none of us will ever be absolutely sure of the answer while on this earth..... so we must depend upon God's grace to save us from our ignorance.

Gene Jones...a sinner in God's eyes![This message was edited by Gene Jones on 18 February 2004 at 01:49 PM.]

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 18 Feb 2004 1:41 pm

Give praises to the LORD on an instrument of 10 strings. (Psalm 33:2) (Psalm 92:3) (Psalm 144:9)
Make a joyful noise all you sinners! (And aren't we all!)

Erv

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 18 Feb 2004 2:10 pm

Gentlemen, i find this thread most instructive and thankgoodness no flames or pilories
my thanx to Herb and Rick for the education
if we can get along on a bandstand there's no reason we can't get along here talking bout all this.
Thank You

(ps: Rick Mc D that's Hors D'Oeuvres)

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 18 Feb 2004 2:44 pm

Guys, before I post this, I am in no way defending playing in bars by Christians. I would like to ask you. Where would you have played when you were first "good enough" had it not been for the bars? Some would say play at home or for family outings, or in church. My church had a piano player. No one in my family played any instrument. In my area today, the only church's that you could play steel in are the smaller Pentacostel orientated church' that I have played in. The larger denominations have an organist, orchestra, or pianist. I really enjoy playing in church, but am only called on special occassions. I have been contacted by a newly formed Cowboy Church to play on Sundays and I hopefully can do this. I wonder how many steel players we would have today if the bars were not here? It is a shame that there are not better venues to accomodate all the steel players. There is only about 5 "Little Oprys" within a 100 miles of my area and probably 50 players. I hope I have not offended anyone, I guess I am just venting my frustation at not having better places to play. Jody.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 18 Feb 2004 2:56 pm

Jody, I understand....Your frustration has been the same as mine throughout my music career. I would not judge anyone....as "The Book" says: it is for each of us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling....and to pray for God's guidance and grace!

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 18 Feb 2004 3:03 pm

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
I John 1:8

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 18 Feb 2004 7:14 pm

I agree, Crowbear... everyone has been very nice and mutually respectful for the most part. Maybe we're learning!

Thanks for the spelling correction. I knew that you'd know!

I wanna hear more about that Cowboy Church... sounds interesting. Maybe that's a gig I COULD play! Only in Texas...[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 18 February 2004 at 07:16 PM.]

Lyle Bradford · Post by **Lyle Bradford** » 18 Feb 2004 7:35 pm

I am a firm believer that the answer lies in each individual and only they can know what is best them. There is no way i could tell one to do it or not to do it.