b/dim

Jerry Warner · From: Charleston, West Virginia, USA

Will someone explain the b/dim cord and what pedal or knee to use is this a dumb ? or what just need to know, little help please and thanks.

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Hi Jerry.
Looks like you are talking about a Bdim7 chord.

To get a Bdim7 chord, I start with a B6 and then flat the third and the fifth. That is, a half tone lower on the third and fifth notes of the B6. B6 chord (1,3,5,6 notes). Bdim7 (1,3b,5b,6 notes)
I don't know your setup so I won't guess which pedals.

Hope this helps.

Jerry Warner · From: Charleston, West Virginia, USA

Ron Randall thanks I just want to know how or what strings or pedals or knees to get a DIM/ note, I was trying something and my brain was not responding as to what I was wanting to do. Thanks for any reply that you or anyone can give.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Jerry,
The most common way of playing a diminished chord on the E9 tuning is to play any common 3-note chord (strings 3,4,5 or 4,5,6 or 5,6,8, or 6,8,10) and press the knee lever that raises the 4th and 8th strings from E to F. This diminished chord, by the way, can be named for ANY of the notes, AND, repeats every 3 frets. So a Bdim chord can be played at the 3rd fret (don't forget to raise the E's to F's) since the 6th string is a B note. Since it repeats every 3 frets, you can also play it at the 6th fret, 9th fret, and 12 frets. Now, technically, the diminished chord you normally see charted in a song is a diminished 7th chord, and requires 4 notes to completely play it. HOWEVER, the 3-note chords mentioned above will get the job done and flow easily from the A,B pedal positions and 3-note chords that are usually played.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 30 January 2004 at 11:40 PM.]

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

.... on the C6 tuning with standard pedals, a diminished would be strings 5-6-7 with pedals 5 & 6 down, at any fret position.

....also frequently used on the C6 tuning is an augmented...which would be strings 4-5-6 with pedals 6&7.

www.genejones.com

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Ron and Jeff, You MADE my day.

I will get flamed from here to eternity, but a diminished chord requires 4 notes to be right. While we often cut it to 3 notes such as the subject Bdim chord, I was taught and believe that it requires 4 notes. I was also taught that there are only 3 basic chords that require 4 notes to be complete:

1. Major7 (1, 3, 5, 7#)

2. Diminished (really a Dim7--1, 3b, 5b, 7bb)

3. 11th chord (3, 7, 9, 11)

Interestingly, a 13th chord only requires 3 notes. 3, 7, 13. But music has never been consistent across any of it anomalies.

To further answer the author's question. A dim chord (when shortened to 3 notes), is where ANY major chord has its 3rd and 5th tones flattened a half a tone.

IE, 1, 3b, 5b. By example: a B chord has the following notes: B D# F#. A Bdim has the following notes: B D F. Two more to help drive it home. A C chord has C E G notes. A Cdim has C Eb Gb notes. Finally, and E chord has E G# B, an E Dim has E G Bb.

As the posters have correctly stated, it is easily obtained on a PSG by the use of the E to F lever. Here is one place where a B dim chord can be gotten; 6th fret, pick strings 5, 6 and 8, and engage the F lever.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl

Franklin · Posted 31 Jan 2004 10:32 am

Hi Carl, you were taught right. When I taught steel back in Detroit, I asked my students to learn the complete notes of every chord, not just the two or three note version of a full voiced chord. I can't stress enough how important it is to know both, the complete formula, and then to be able to extract the strongest notes of any chord, at will, like your example of the notes needed for the 13th chord sound. This knowledge is priceless.

Full voiced chords work best in solo pieces, or, with a very small band. Chalker performed mostly with the sound of a trio or quartet because having few chordal instruments, if any, allowed him the harmonic room and musical freedom to play the chordal approach he is famous for without making the band sound muddy.

Let me add this....playing music with a band does eliminate alot of those firm harmonic rules we were both taught early on. Musical taste restricts alot of what can be played, to, what should be played for the best arranged sound.

For instance, In arranging/orchestrating music with a band, it is not required for any one instrument to play complete chords to accomplish the chord structure.

When one fiddle player plays a C whole note, the other fiddle plays an Eb whole note, the steel player plays a Gb whole note and the trumpet plays the A whole note, along with The Bass player walking four quarter notes...C D Eb C through the bar. No other instrument needs to play the chord because the C diminish chord is completely represented through the sound of the band. This is a simple example of how playing music as a band/team can work through an arrangers/producers perspective.

When playing in a band, and especially recording with one, if there are too many instruments playing thick sounding chords, like diminish chords, the bands sound can get a little heavy handed or muddy at those moments, for a lack of a better term. This especially happens when several instruments play different voicings of the same chord at different rhythmic intervals. Avoiding this is why you typically don't hear alot of full chords by steel guitars in recorded music. Two part harmonies are always sufficient and are more often heard throughout the steels recorded history than the full chordal approach.

The occasions where full chords work well is when there is only a basic rhythm section. Piano, Bass, and drums, Or Guitar bass and drums. Buddy's black album, Maurices first Jazz album, and Jernigans Diggin' Doug record are perfect examples of great orchestration in a small ensemble. Notice that on radio songs that feature big steel chord solos, the other chordal instruments tend to empty out or are mixed way back in volume so that the steels chords can clearly be heard.

Listening to Jazz records, where there are two chording instruments, piano and guitar. I notice more often than not when the piano solos, the guitarist typically lays off chords to allow the pianists left hand to comp' the chord line. The same is true with the pianist. When the guitarist plays single note lines, the pianist makes chordal stabs. The moment the guitarist breaks into chord lines in his solo the pianist lays out, so that the music maintains a clean harmonic sound. Players achieve this in improvised situations by listening to what is going on around them at all times. I liken this to having a musical conversation. The times that you hear them both comping chords, there is typically a written voiced chord chart that they are both reading while improvising.

In large band recordings where there are several instruments playing chords, everyone of those instruments are completely arranged harmonically so that the same rhythmic feel and voicings are represented by most. Otherwise it could sound like a jumbled mess....Sorry, I got long winded but I love subjects like this....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 31 January 2004 at 10:45 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 31 January 2004 at 10:47 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

B D F = B diminished triad

B D F A-flat = B diminished seventh

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"B dim" and "B diminished" are ambiguous and could mean either triad or seventh. In popular music it more likely means seventh, and in serious music it more likely means triad.

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

All minor 3rds stacked up on each other. How important is it to have the minor 3rd of the dim7 chord in the voicing?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"How important is it to have the minor 3rd of the dim7 chord in the voicing?"

Well there are three minor thirds in a dim7 chord. Which one are you refering to?

carl

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

A diminished chord is a triad, just like a major, minor, and augmented chord are triads. Three notes. Period.
Major=1 3 5
Minor=1 3b 5
Aug=1 3 5#
Dim=1 3b 5b

All of those triads can be extended, by adding 7 (Ma7), b7 (Dom7) and other notes in the upper structure (above Cool

like 9th, 11th, 13th. Those extensions can also be altered, such as adding (to a Dom7 chord, for example) b9, #9, #11, etc.

Within that context of extension lies the DIMINISHED 7TH chord, which is spelled
1 3b 5b 7bb
In C that would be C Eb Gb A (Bbb)

It is a diminished triad with a double flatted 7th (enharmonically equivalent to the sixth).
How can you play it?
Take any Dom7 chord, raise the tonic and lower the bar one fret (that's the easy way)
Take any mi7 chord, lower the b7 1/2 step, the 5th 1/2 step and lower the bar one fret

Another way is to take the diminished triad and add a 6th (or, more properly, bb7). If you lower your 2nd string to D on E9, you can play 5, 4#(F lever), 3, and 2b

In the real world, musicians pretty much use the two interchangeably. If you move the dim triad up three frets, it will add that fourth note (the sixth or bb7). In F, for example (that's open on E9 on 8#,6,5 -- only the E to F change), the notes are F Ab B (or Cb). That's a diminished triad.
Now . . . if you move it up three frets you get Ab B D. A NEW NOTE. It's the sixth (or bb7).

SO . . . if you play the dim triad at a given fret (like F on the open tuning with the F lever only) and move it up three frets, you are covering all the notes in the Dim7 chord. You can continue moving up a tritone (3 frets) and will eventually end up an octave above where you started. Play it. You'll recognize the sound.

It's a very useful relationship to understand, both for single notes and harmonized notes.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I can't believe all of you were so gracious as to answer Mr. Warner's theory question so completely, especially you Franklin. This forum is an incredible resource for information for all levels of players. Bravo to you all.

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

The scale that matches the diminished chord also repeats in minor thirds.
It starts with a whole tone step, then half tone, whole tone, half tone, etc - until you end up where you started.
So this introduces other possible tones to be included in the chord if you wish.
For a C diminished chord, the scale would go like this:
C, D, Eb, F, F#, G#, A, B, C

For instance, for you C6 guys, if you press pedals 5 & 6 together, you'll notice you have a dim. 7th chord all the way from string 8 to 3. All minor thirds. Now....
Consider string 2. It is raised with pedal 6 from E to F. This is one of those "extra tones" of the scale which may be used in the chord. Again, three frets up the 2nd string will yield yet another of those "extra tones".
Listen to a tune like "The nearness of you" and you'll hear those odd tones which are not part of the "stack of minor thirds" voicing. (in bar 4)
Or, alternately, listen to a guy like Bobby Garrett, who had an uncanny knack for selecting that "odd tone" in the sweetest spots during diminished chords. (An example, BG's solo in "Get the hell outta Dodge" from the "Hank Thompson and Friends" CD.
Or the original bridge Ellington played in his "In a Sentimental Mood" (last half of the 3rd bar of the bridge) - it also leans on this "odd tone" heavily and effectively.
I thought Garrett's solo on that Hank cut was a masterpiece, so I'd tabbed it out here: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000607.html

You'll notice he makes use of those odd tones not only on diminished chords, but on the related 7b9 chords. Very cool. I can't name anyone who does it better than BG.
-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I will be flamed and boiled in oil for this,

but IMO;

There is no such thing as a three note diminished chord. When one plays BDF it is not a diminished chord at all, rather it is a G7 chord. In order for it to be a Dim chord, the player OR some other instrument in the band must play an Ab note in order for it to be a Bdim chord.

The term dim is short for dim7. The reason it must have 4 notes is there is no way to distinguish a dim chord from a 7th chord until you add the 4th note.

Example:

BDFG is a G7 chord.

BDFAb is a dim chord with the the "7th" (double flatted) understood.

If you drop the 4th note you loose the disntinguishing factor that has to be; in order to fulfill the definition of any dim chord.

Bdim MEANS BDFAb

BDF means G7

Period

Only when you add the 4th note could it ever be a diminished chord. All diminished chords repeat every 3 frets. This is NOT possible if one only plays 3 notes. It would NOT repeat.

BDFAb

DFAbB

FAbBD

AbBDF

Any so-called 3 note dim is really a 7th chord. A rose by any other name would Still be a rose. We can call BDF a dim chord all we want, but in reality it is still a G7 chord. Always has been, always will be.

One can call AC#E an E13sus4 forever, but it is still an Amajor chord and always will be.

A Dim chord (short for Dim7 is:

1 3b 5b 7bb

it is not

1 3b 5b

Just like a major 7th chord is

1 3 5 7#

it is never 3 5 7# or another combination. That is why it must contain all 4 notes.

Majors, minors, augmenteds, 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, 13ths and suspendeds can contain just 3 notes to complete. NOT so with a dim chord, it must contain 4.

I respect sincerely; and very respectfully; anyone who disagrees; but I must hold to the above. As it is at the very core and foundation of what I studied and understand in my musical theory training.

I was trained IMO, by the greatest and most thoroughly educated musical mind I have ever known. She would turn over in her grave if I did not post this.

May Jesus rest her dear soul. And may he richly bless all of you,

carl

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Carl, I was referring to the first minor 3rd up from the root. Someone was calling a dim voicing without the first minor 3rd in there a dim voicing and I thought it wasn't a dim chord without it. Just trying to cover my bases. Thanks...

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

There is a minor7b5 chord with a dom7
so for the diminished it drops the 7 another half step.

Easier to think of then a minor6b5 I suppose

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

quote:

BDFAb is a dim chord with the the "7th" (double flatted) understood.

Yup. It's also G7b9 without the root. Also derived from the same diminished scale.

Carl, I can't disagree with you, and I'm glad because I don't have a pot big enough to boil you in

Not that anyone would begrudge a good warm fire up here lately.
I think sometimes in the bridge between theory and application we get hung up on elements of a chord.
Assuming we're playing in a band situation, it's sometimes not necessary to express every tone in every chord. Especially the root, if you've got a bass player. Whle a "diminished chord" (as opposed to the specific term Diminished triad) may call for the 7th, I can't think of a musical situation where it's exclusion or use would cause a problem in most contexts... using it especially if you felt it was a vital element of the chord. That would be dictated (hopefully) by sound and not theory though.
Taking it a step further, in respect to my earlier comments about the "extra tones" available from the matching diminished scale, in many cases adding one of those notes only sweetens the harmonic pallette as well... of course, very subject to taste.
Man, am I relieved. Oil is expensive these days!

-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

Jerry Warner · From: Charleston, West Virginia, USA

Thanks to all that explained the DIM cord lots of smart steel guys on here and you can learn something on this great forum.

Harley Morris · From: Riverside, California, USA * R.I.P.

Talking about diminished chords--------I had an ole boy tell me years ago----"You hit a DIMINISHED, and you are FINISHED" True story... Harley

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I'm not the only one who makes the distinction between a diminished triad and a diminished 7th chord .

If you search the web for 'diminished triad' you will find many references. Calling both a dim and dim7 a 'DIMINISHED' chord seems confusing and inconsistent to me. This is meant, as always with the utmost of respect for Carl and any others who disagree. FWIW, I will continue to refer to the three note chord as DIMINISHED and the four note version with the bb7 a DIMINISHED SEVENTH.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Franklin · Posted 2 Feb 2004 12:55 pm

Larry,
When I see Cdim on a chart it is assumed we will automatically add the A note. Most arrangers will specify it to be a triad if they don't want the A. When jazz players read through the real book and they see a 7th chord they usually add the ninth to it.

There are alot of unspoken rules in music application....Paul

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Me too, Paul. As I said before

Franklin · Posted 2 Feb 2004 3:15 pm

Larry,
I agree. My first post was to make the point that there are no firm rules when applying the steel in a band setting. That seems to be yours as well.....Paul

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