Naming of Chord

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 10 Jan 2004 9:16 am

John, really, really, terrific playing, from you and the sax guy. You might consider posting that clip as a separate thread on the Steel Players section. I would love to get a discussion going on that as it could relate to steel. You do make the valid point about how the 13#11 can be a V7 that goes to the tonic, though as I said, you'll be hard pressed to open a pop standards fake book of hundreds of tunes like "Cherokee" and "How High The Moon" and find charted examples of it, as opposed to finding many charted altered dominant examples. I ought to open a book with a lot of post-bop standards. As you said, there I will probably find more charted examples of it. I don't think I once in all my clips (around 25 minutes worth) ever resolved from the 13#11 to the tonic (though I consider the 13#11 a staple of my playing), and I played boatloads of harmonies. Still, you give me something here to think about, and I thank you for that. I will start experimenting will the use of the 13#11 to resolve to the tonic and hopefully I can integrate the sound into my thinking. If I can, it will probably appear the next time I record something!! And as I said, please consider posting that clip. I think there is a lot to be learned from that and I would love to hear everything you have to say about it. .. Jeff

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Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 10 January 2004 at 09:30 AM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 10 Jan 2004 11:40 am

Aww, Jeff... you're very kind. We were just jammin' though. That's what we do to keep warm up here.

Glad you liked it. You probably noticed in the sax player's 3rd chorus how he employs that b13 a la Charlie Parker to morph into the IV chord too.
No age discrimination in that band. The sax player is 15, the drummer is 74.
Unfortunately I don't have the technology to post the clip on the web. If anyone would like to, that's great, or if anyone wants me to mail it to them, I'd be glad to. It's 784 KB. As forementioned, it was just a jam, the furthest thing from a polished performance, but we were having fun.
-John
p.s. I'm going to think about transferring a couple of Monk V-I moves onto the steel, he used the #11 alot as a V chord.

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www.ottawajazz.com

Harley Morris · Post by **Harley Morris** » 14 Jan 2004 11:29 pm

Jim Bob..... Just look at what you started here...Is this the chord that Dave ended Remington Ride with on our CD?? That's why I stick to fiddle-- none of these big fat chords to worry about.. Oh well.... Regards, Harley

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 15 Jan 2004 4:24 am

Did anybody ask Ernest?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 15 Jan 2004 5:02 am

great topic..great to hear from such fine musicians..

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 15 January 2004 at 05:27 AM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 15 Jan 2004 6:40 am

I see it as C13#11
Why is the C13#11 not a substitute for the V7.
As I see it the C13#11 C E G Bb D F# A is derived from the Lydian b7 scale and the way I know that scale is that it can be used for all dom7th other than the V7 because the C note itself is not a 5th (meaning the scale does not include a F note to resolve to).
But it is still allowed to break the rules

Bengt Erlandsen[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 15 January 2004 at 06:46 AM.]

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 15 Jan 2004 9:51 am

Dam, Jim Bob...now my head hurts...

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 15 Jan 2004 9:57 am

Buddy's turnaround is still causing reverberations in the steel world over 40 years later. That's something!

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 15 Jan 2004 11:52 am

I just the last year or so started really hearing things this way, and I think it's exciting. (I should just have "geek" tatooed on my forehead, to save time.)

A 13th chord is where scales and chords become the same, because it contains all 7 notes of a scale. So, yeah, the C13#11 chord has all the notes of a C Lydian flat7 scale.

(A breakthrough for me as a bass player was when I started hearing 9th chords as pentatonic scales. Usually, I leave the full scales to the horn players, or think of the other notes as passing tones.)

Looking at it another way, you can express a scale as a chord by respelling it as stacked thirds. OR you can express a chord as a scale by respelling it one octave. (I mean normal, decent, tertial chords; let's not get into quartals or "pandiatonic clusters" please -some children read this.)

This correspondence between notes that sound all at once and the a used for melodic materials is a big part of how Western music is made.

The same notes can make different chords, depending on which note is the root, in the same way that the same scale can make different modes, depending on which pitch is the tonic. Your example could be rearranged to make C13#11, D11b13, Eø13#9, F#ø(b11), Gm13(#7), Am11b9#13, or the sesquipedalian BbM13#5#11!

Yet another way of looking at it is that each scale equals a mode, which is the jazz-guy way.
C major= CM13
D dorian = Dm13 (or Dm13#11)
E phrygian = Em13b11
F lydian = FM13#11
G mixolydian = G13
A aeolian = Am11b13 (or Am13)
B locrian = Bø13

I'm not sure if more people would consider the "normal" minor 13th to be the one based on the Dorian or the Aeolian mode. This is the sort of stuff people who don't have a gig argue about, but it's important if you yell "A minor thirteenth!" over your shoulder to the banjo player and he or she, assuming a variant derivation, plays a wrong note as a result, which must happen often to many of us...heh-heh...[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 15 January 2004 at 12:08 PM.]

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 15 Jan 2004 3:31 pm

I know the name of the chord, and for the fleeting moment that it exists in the passing of vastness of precious, such precious time, it only needs one name:...

Music.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 16 Jan 2004 7:14 am

Boys, I'm confused. Is the back neck on my guitar a C6, or Amin7?