Naming of Chord

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 7 Jan 2004 3:21 pm

I need help in naming a chord. C6th tuning
String 9 through 3. Notes from the bottom.
C E G Bb D F#,A.

This chord is a C 9, Flat 5 with added 6th.
(A). Question Is the A note named an added 6th or a 13th? Your help is appreciated.

Rich Young · Post by **Rich Young** » 7 Jan 2004 3:52 pm

If I'm reading it correctly, C13b5
---
After re-reading - Herb is correct C13#11 - I didn't catch the G(5th) and you can't have both a 5 and a flat 5. [This message was edited by Rich Young on 09 January 2004 at 01:26 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Jan 2004 3:53 pm

C13aug11

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 7 Jan 2004 3:56 pm

It's not a b5 chord if it has a G note in it.

I would call this chord a C13#11, though it would probably best be arpeggiated, instead of a block chord.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 7 Jan 2004 4:00 pm

I, personally, would call it a 13th. If you told someone to play a "C9 with a flatted fifth and added 6th" they would, in my opinion, be led to believe that you truly wanted a 6th -- i.e the A-note a half tone below the Bb note. This would be a dischord to me, where the A an octave higher would be a dissonant but nice chord. I use it quite often for my "5" chord before returning to the tonic or "1" chord, but usually without flatting the 5th.

But, I suggest you wait for an answer from some more well versed in chord construction and analysis than me.
*********************************************
Edited to say that Rich, Bobby and Herb answered while I was typing. Looks like all of us are saying something a little different, but that we are all agreeing that the "A" note is not the 6th.

Isn't that the case, guys?[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 07 January 2004 at 04:07 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 7 Jan 2004 4:09 pm

Well.......

It's nice to know we all agree!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Jan 2004 4:15 pm

Em11b5/C

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 7 Jan 2004 4:27 pm

That is my all time favorite chord. I call it C13#11. It has a ton of applications. It also sounds good if you change the Bb to B where it becomes a form of a major chord rather than a dominate.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 7 Jan 2004 4:31 pm

D/C7 or C7 (9 #11 13) sometimes called C lydian flat 7 (but not in bars 'less you wanna be called Poindexter).[This message was edited by John McGann on 07 January 2004 at 04:32 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 7 Jan 2004 4:32 pm

Nice try b0b.

If it is played in the I Chord Section of a song in C, it is a Cxxxx Chord. it is NOT an Em.

Only if it is played as a III Cord.

Function Trumps Form.

World War IV has been averted once more.

It's a Thankless Job.

EJL

Savell · Post by **Savell** » 7 Jan 2004 4:52 pm

.[This message was edited by Savell on 31 May 2005 at 01:11 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Jan 2004 5:07 pm

C13#11
Very useful 'chameleon' chord that can be used in a bunch of contexts
P6+P7 on C6

As pointed out, using other chord tones as the root, you can find some of the subs this chord can be used for

You play this chord when a simple C WON'T do.

It's the 4th chord in the 'Night Life' cadence.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 7 Jan 2004 5:15 pm

Thanks guys for your responses. However, I have determined that this chord is a cross between a diminished and an augmented. I think I'll call it a C Demented chord.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Jan 2004 5:40 pm

More like a C augminished.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2004 7:49 pm

This chord is referring to the 7th fret on the C6 tuning using pedals 6,7. While the chord is indeed a C13#11 (among other names), this is misleading because it would imply that such a chord would work in a dominant 7th (V7) capacity. In fact, that chord is a rather unpleasant sounding chord when used as an extension of a dominant 7th. To test out this idea, try playing that chord, and resolve it to an F chord at the 5th fret (two frets lower). Not particularly pleasant. It would only occasionally be used as an altered/extended dominant that way. Depending on the context I have used it in, I would call it a C13#11 (as many here have pointed out), Gmi(ma13), Bbmaj13#5#11, and Em11b5/C. HOWEVER, the most common way I use it, and by far the most common way any C6 player I have heard would use it, is as a dominant 7th (V7) chord resolving to the chord one fret lower. In this case, it would be an F#7 at fret 7 resolving to Bmaj at fret 6. This F#7 is a completely altered F#7 chord, containing the b9,#9,#11,b13 (G,A,C,D) notes. You could say that the C13#11 is a perfect tri-tone substitution, but the bottom line is that MOST OF THE TIME that chord at fret 7 is acting as a dominant resolving to the tonic at fret 6, and the correct answer is F#7alt, meaning an altered F#7 chord.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Jan 2004 8:10 pm

Yeah, just like the Night Life progression
The C13#11 is almost a sub for F#7aug (F# A# D E) leading to a B something or another.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2004 9:08 pm

True Larry. The Nightlife progression is a jazz III,VI,II,V, and probably should be charted, in the key of C, as Em7, A7alt, Dm7, G7alt, basically a cycle of 5ths. The Eb13#11 is a tri-tone sub for the A7alt, the AbM7 is a sub for the Dm7, and the Db13#11 is a sub for the G7alt. The trouble is, there are so many ways of looking at this stuff. At least as important as the name of the chord is how it's voiced. The reason the 13#11 using pedals 6,7 works so well is that it is a very pretty voicing and so easy to get to.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 7 Jan 2004 9:56 pm

C pregnant 9th with a fermented 6th add a constipated 11th. You can't go wrong!

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 7 Jan 2004 10:36 pm

That's a heck of a chord alright. I'm with Rich. Its a C13b5.

C E G Bb D F#,A.

What you've got are two chords in one: a C7 and a D. What's that make?

--End of first revision

I re-read Herb's post and he's right. C13#11 with the F# being the sharp 11. I bet that is kind of a nasty sounding chord with the F# and G together in the same chord even though they are an octave apart.

Whew!

--End of second revision

jd[This message was edited by Joe Drivdahl on 07 January 2004 at 10:42 PM.][This message was edited by Joe Drivdahl on 07 January 2004 at 10:46 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2004 11:27 pm

Since my post was too long, and probably not read by everyone, I'll give a summary. In the typical C6 context in which that chord is played, it resolves to some form of B major (inc Bmaj7/9). Therefore, it is best to call it an F#7, albeit fully altered, or simply F#7alt for short. If you call it a C13#11, that would imply a C7 extended chord which would resolve to F (Fmaj7/9). In fact, this is NOT how it is normally used by C6 players.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 Jan 2004 6:43 am

I bet that is kind of a nasty sounding chord with the F# and G together in the same chord even though they are an octave apart

Ever play a GMaj7? G B D F#

Matt Dawson · Post by **Matt Dawson** » 8 Jan 2004 6:53 am

If you think of this chord as resolving to B it seems to have alot in common with the whole tone chord used in 'You are the Sunshine of my life' by Stevie Wonder and could do the same job.
Unless Im mistaken, this chord uses a whole tone scale in F# with the G# missing.
Matt
[This message was edited by Matt Dawson on 08 January 2004 at 07:37 AM.]

Matt Dawson · Post by **Matt Dawson** » 8 Jan 2004 7:05 am

I am mistaken, the G doesnt fit...but its a close relative anyway.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 8 Jan 2004 7:22 am

Good point. In a tune such as "You Are The Sunshine Of My Life", "Moon River", etc., this would be the IV chord (NOT the dominant) in the key of G, and it WOULD be a C13#11. But like I said, it is most often used by C6 players as an extension to an F#7.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 08 January 2004 at 07:23 AM.]

Matt Dawson · Post by **Matt Dawson** » 8 Jan 2004 7:42 am

Jeff,
I was using this as an example of it substituting the V7 as you mentioned. For me If you play Sunshine of my life in B this chord replaces an F#7 as you have said, not the lV chord. Didn't explain myself well. I dont know the chords of Moonriver well enough to comment (but I recently heard a KILLER version played by Russ Hicks)
Matt