Competence on the C6 neck, Sine qua non?

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 22 Dec 2003 9:50 am

Hello,

I got my first D-10 in August 2003, and have tried to find my voice on the C6 neck, but try as I might, there seems to be some kind of barrier up between me and it. My question is, is being competent on both necks the sine qua non of steel playing excellence? If one is only fluent on the E9 neck, is that enough?

I try from time to time to use the back neck with some of the bands I work with and it just ends of sounding inappropriate, which has resulted in my playing the E9 neck much more. This has led to my feeling MUCH more confident on the E9 neck. And sounding much better, to be sure. Am I lame? Or is competence on the C6 neck not "essential" for every steel player, in this day and age? I should note that I play with no swing or old time bands.

Thanks for reading my post.

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 22 Dec 2003 9:55 am

Uhhhhh............Lloyd Green

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Dec 2003 10:06 am

Gerald,

You are not alone, this is a built in problem with PSG's. IE, the A and B pedal on E9th are "user friendly". NOT so on C6. The problem is mostly due to the fact that we no longer go from playing lap steels using a different tunings to Pedals. Rather we start off with Pedals and IF we happen to start on E9th, we are able to make music immediately with little effor albeit may not be too good.

This is not true on C6. There is indeed gold on C6, BUT you must find out WHERE that gold is. Whereas on the E9th the gold tends to be intuitive.

If you want to learn to play C6, I would strongly suggest you seek out one or more of the many courses preferably with video on C6. Talk with Jeff Newman or go to the Buddy Emmons site. They have excellent courses on C6.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 22 Dec 2003 10:23 am

There are many awesome players who play E9 only (or at least, largely): Lloyd Green, as mentioned above; JayDee Maness comes to mind immediately as well

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Dec 2003 10:41 am

Although I am not by any stretch proficient on the Lower Ten, I fully agree with Carls response and assesment

The C6th tuning is not Greek..it just appears to be. The music theory is exactly the same as on the Upper Ten..it's just layed out differently so you have to visualize it differently.

There are some very fine courses to be had and I too would recommend using one as a jump start. I personally have Herby Wallaces 2 courses but so far have not gotten any farther than scales in the first course. From the scales I have been able to apply my many years on guitar and my E9th tenure and things are gradually clicking along.

Scales in 2 or 3 positions, and chords played out of 2 or 3 positions is a nice way to get started.

IS it necesssary to play the C6th tuning ? Of course not, thats why they ,make S10's.

As mentioned above . some of the greates players of all time are E9th only players.

But the C6th offers another medium for playing music..

In some ways the C6th tuning leaves the E9th in the dust with logic and chord relationships. I have heard many folks say that they learn all their new songs on the C6th and move it to the E9th..That actually makes sense to me now..

I spend more time practicing on the C6th neck now than the E9th..It's fascinating and fun.

Consider me now dangerous...

Good luck
T[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 December 2003 at 10:45 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 22 Dec 2003 11:01 am

Jay Dee is deep into exploring the C6th these days. IMO the C6th offers up a harmonic musicality better suited for Pop and Jazz music. On "The Players" gigs I use the E9th on a few songs. The majority of the night is spent on the C6th.

The E9th has a sound so closely tied to traditional Country. So as traditional seems to be fading away from the mainstream, and if that continues, I wonder if the desire to hear the E9th sound will remain as strong. On sessions I mess around with the C6th. I hear comments on the tone. They seem to like its warmth and range from lows to highs.

Things could be changing....Paul

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 22 Dec 2003 11:05 am

The E9th neck is played for money, the C9th neck is played for FUN!!!!

Erv

Mark Tomeo · Post by **Mark Tomeo** » 22 Dec 2003 11:53 am

Until you can get over the notion that the E9 is the "country" neck and C6 is the "swing" neck. You'll have this dilemma. As Carl noted (correctly in my experience) C6 is not as immediately user friendly as is E9. Especially if you came to the steel already knowing how to play standard guitar. E9 bears a lot of similarity to guitar in terms of frets and positions.
When you start C6 it's not too difficult to learn some basic swing and blues progressions/licks. It's not until you really internalize/master the tuning that it becomes a musical tool to just use. Guys like Paul can get it done on either neck because it's all music to them. For the rest of us it's country here and swing there.
The other holdback I've experienced is that practically no one really knows how to play decent swing music anymore. I work with all kinds of players who can rock hard, play country and twang, sensitive folk, or bad blues but don't have any swing feel. And you can't just throw down C6 licks/progressions while the rest of the band is rocking out or whatever.
You're not lame; trying to play stereotypical C6 in a band that can't swing will sound inappropriate.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 22 Dec 2003 12:00 pm

Gerald, at the PSGA show, you would swear that Randy Beavers was playing his C6 neck if you didn't see him playing the E9 on the large video screen.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Dec 2003 12:12 pm

I don't know what "sine qua non" means, but I've never had a gig that I couldn't cover on my 12-string E9th. Sometimes I play a D-10 for fun - I do enjoy playing the back neck - but the bandleaders don't insist on it. Maybe it's a regional thing, though. I imagine that bandleaders in Texas might have a different view.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 22 Dec 2003 12:44 pm

....There are many awesome players who play E9 only....

....and the other side of the coin is that there have been many awsome players who never played E9....

Steve Alonzo Walker · Post by **Steve Alonzo Walker** » 22 Dec 2003 12:52 pm

I've Been Playing A D-10 For 33 Years and Honestly Tried To Learn The C6th Neck. I Never Had The Confidence To Play Much Live And That's Always Been A Bitter Disappointment Towards Myself. However, Thanks To A Post Awhile Back About "The Lean And Mean 10 String Tuning" Has Helped Me Play More On My Back Neck. It Has Both E9th & C6th Voicings Though I still Have To Learn New String Grabs. Since I Didn't Play That Neck Much, I Wasn't Use To The Regular C6th Grabs. Now I can Play My C6th Sounds And Also Some Rather Cool Voiced E9th Licks. I Call The Tuning B6th/9th. I Tuned It Open To A "B" So That When I Use Pedals 4&5 (For My E9th Sounding Licks) I Am In The Familiar E9th Open Fret Positions. I Have The Confidence Now To Play Both Necks. MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAVE A HAPPY AND SAFE NEWYEARS!

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 22 Dec 2003 1:02 pm

Howard,
Ditto on Randy Beavers. At one of our NTSGA "SuperJams",he was on stage w/ Hal Rugg,& John Hughey. Hal,& John were "burnin'up" the C6th necks,& Randy was keepin' right up w/ 'em,ON THE E9th NECK!! This guy is nothing short of AMAZING!!
To boot,he is one of the nicest,most humble guys you'll ever meet! To this day,I can't figure out why he's not part of the "A Team" session pickers.DO NOT miss an opportunity to see Randy play,if you ever have a chance!!

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<pre> ~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com</pre>

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Dec 2003 4:41 pm

I am in the distinct minority here.

I got the PSG for the C6 neck and have expanded it to fit my needs. The basic C6 does have one or two holes IMHO. But then again it also has so many more possibilities.
But it also demands more study and theory analysis. Not a bad thing that.

I eventually starteded using E9. Last time I played out with Rose-Bud, was 90% C6.
There are things E9 is real good for, other things It leaves me wondering.

Having heard Lloyd Revisited and a few other things, I have come to appreciate its possiblities much more.
But in general I am glad I went into C6 intensly 1st and then into E9.

Gerald, get Buddy E's swinging series for a better handle on C6 with the TAB too.

And The Players too Paul is smokin' on that.

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 22 Dec 2003 6:13 pm

b0b, why do you think the Texans play a Bb6th S12? They've got all the bases covered with one universal tuning!!! Of course they are musicians, too, not just pedal mashers! Oops!! Did I say that??? Shame on me!!! I'm not referring to yourself nor anyone in particular.......just the concept! How many guitar players (owners!) only know the first
3 chord songs they ever learned. My buddy & I were jamming a few years back & I suggested he play a C on the A string.....he
said "I don't know which one that is.....I know there are 2 E strings, the 1st & 6th, but I don't know the names of the rest of them." He was my same age & had played all his life, same as me? I say we learn as long as we want to!If you're satisfied not to learn anymore than you know at this point, so be it. But you'll never learn any more any younger. It takes knowledge and application (band stand knowledge) I met a 23 yr old this summer, a road steeler w/ a name act & he was working on an old standard he'd heard someone play, but he didn't have a clue where the bridge went? You ought to be able to read the language if you're trying to speak the tongue!
It's not that hard......or is it??? Just apply yourself, but I think you have to care enough. end of today's lecture! tune in again tomorrow......or not!! [This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 22 December 2003 at 06:15 PM.][This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 22 December 2003 at 06:32 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 22 Dec 2003 6:31 pm

Great to hear that JayDee is digging into C6; can't wait to hear the results. Of course, it's still the case that he built his reputation, and was elected to the Steel Guitar Hall of Fame, based on his E9 playing, so the point remains: one does NOT have to play C6 -- or indeed anything other than E9 -- in order to be considered a consummate steel guitarist of the highest calibre.

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 22 Dec 2003 6:31 pm

I just read some of the other posts in this thread, which I hadn't done before I typed today's sermon. It reminds me of the first steel player I met (of any consequence for a local) He asked "Who's your favorite steel player?" Slim Idaho (it was 1947 & he was w/the Old Dominion Barn Dance @ WRVA. Some one here might be old enough to recall that)
"Have you ever heard of Jerry Byrd?" "Is he a steel player? "He's the best there is!"
"Never heard of him?" Next time he came to our Sat night dance, he brought me a stack of homemade acetates. I played them as soon as I got home.......& didn't know you could do that on a steel??!!! More of the same story: many years later I went to this same guy's house to visit & he showed me his two bakelite Ricks! Just like Jerry's & I asked, "Why two?" "Well, Doug this one is C6th, but this one is tuned C#6th" DUH!!! A case of not wanting to learn anything further, right!!??
You don't have to play strictly by those little fret markers!!! When the singer does his song in a different key?? By the way,
I'm running for Jody's long winded post award for 2004!? in case you hadn't noticed?[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 22 December 2003 at 06:34 PM.][This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 22 December 2003 at 06:36 PM.][This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 22 December 2003 at 06:37 PM.][This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 22 December 2003 at 11:06 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 22 Dec 2003 6:59 pm

Gerald, You can look at C6 as a fun experiment in progress, and just work on it at home. When you are ready, whether it is in 6 months or 6 years, you will use it automatically since it will make sense to do so at that point on some song you hear. Until then, just have fun at home with it. Do the following. Get a course or two and play with them. Also, click on my web-page below. I have a lot of stuff on there to help you figure out where to play different types of progressions and harmonies. And don't make it an issue. E9 is your money neck and C6 is just for experimenting and fun. Then suddenly, one day you'll find yourself using it live, assuming you have remained interested, because it will make sense.

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Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 22 December 2003 at 07:06 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 22 Dec 2003 8:36 pm

Carl made an excellent point. I think that learning on a 6th tuning LAP steel should be the way to go for a beginner. I have found that alot of the good older C6th players started this way. On the other hand, dittos on Randy Beavers. You would swear that he is playing on the C6th neck when in fact he is on the E9th. So it can be done. I wish Randy would consider putting a video course out on this technique as it would be VERY valuable to the steel community. Sorely needed.
I play only D-10's. I have forced myself over the last year and a half to study the C6th neck with a master player. I find it far more difficult than the E9th haveing to use both feet many times and sometines both feet
and three pedals. I also force myself to play C6th at least once a night with my band. You really do have to apply yourself. Its ashame. Its like speaking Italian. If you don't use it, you lose it. I also agree that not many younger players know how to play swing.

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 22 Dec 2003 9:48 pm

JayDee played some of his very early learnings for me on the C6th neck November '02 when he came by the San Jose steel jam. It was all new to him, but I was just amazed at the wonderful sound of his "early" attempts. By now, he's probably just smokin'.

Go for it, JayDee. And I hope you can come to future SJ jams.

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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 22 Dec 2003 11:15 pm

Wow, I just read Gene Jones' good point in his post.......let's see, the guy who taught me (he didn't know it) how to play Steel Guitar Rag.....take it away Leon! Herb Remington, Jerry Byrd, Bill Stafford? Lots of those who led the way for many of us older
folks (steelers) never did play E9th as we know it today. I'm guessing lots of Texans, & of course w/my limited knowledge I can only guess, but I think there have been been many before us who "never set foot on an A or B pedal!!!!"

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 23 Dec 2003 5:30 am

Chalker chose to learn the E9th to expand his musical potential as Jay Dee is doing now by learning the C6th.....I can't wait to hear him apply his musicianship to the tuning.

The open E9th tuning spans almost two octaves.
The C6th spans two and a half octaves. The extra bass notes are a plus when playing more complex chords.

I suggest learning them both. If you have no desire to learn two tunings? try a universal 12 string tuning.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 23 December 2003 at 05:42 AM.]

Robert Jones · Post by **Robert Jones** » 23 Dec 2003 7:09 am

On sessions I mess around with the C6th. I hear comments on the tone. They seem to like its warmth and range from lows to highs.

Things could be changing....Paul

Paul has captured my attention in what he has said. I am really curious as to what may happen with these sessions that you are toying around with on your c6th. I am also very interested in hearing what the tunes are going to sound like as well. I play good on the 9th, but not so good on the 6th. Would love to be a little more talented to be able to do both. Some day. I just keep my shoulder to the grinding stone and I'll learn. There is nothing wrong with just being a good player on the 9th. I think that being able to do both is great also. Example: Since I've mentioned Paul in the beginning let's take the two different rides he does on Alan Jackson's "I Don't Even Know Her Name". Such a great song using BOTH necks. Why not have the best of both worlds?

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Mullen Royal Percision D-10 Red Laquar Pearl inlay 8&8
www.dbcooperonline.com

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 23 Dec 2003 7:28 am

Wow, thanks you guys, some of you have even responded with some emails containing some fundamentals for me. I have a week off between Christmas and New Year's and will seclude myself away with the steel and take some steps to get my act together with the C6 tuning.

I have Doug Jernigan's C6 for beginners and will spend some serious woodshed time with that. I'll have to check out Buddy's course a little later. It seems, from the responses to my question, that in the view of many on this forum, competence on the C6 neck IS a must.

"Sine qua non" is Latin for "without which there is nothing". Certainly Lloyd and JD are examples of players who have defined the sound of the instrument using only the E9 tuning. So in this sense, sina qua non, may have been a poor choice of words. I probably should have said "A must?" instead. Apparently got my point across, nonetheless.

The fact remains, however, (to my ears) that some of the note clusters that are available easily on the C6 neck seem out of place with most of the bands I play with. I love a maj7 with a flat5 and a ninth as much as the next guy. But when you are playing with Neil Young or Palace Brothers fans, those chords seem to generate the "Can you play something simpler, dude?" remarks. So maybe the kinds of bands I play with have in some sense led me to spend more time on the E9 neck.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 23 Dec 2003 8:32 am

Gerald...Check out the Emmon's clips thread. You'd be hard pressed to find a simpler tune than "Oh Lonesome Me." And Buddy plays as deep as it gets on the C6th over those simple changes. Approach has everything to do with the acceptance of this or any other tuning in modern music. Enjoy your journey.....Paul