DRUNKEN MUSICIANS in the public eye

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 21 Nov 2003 11:03 am

quote:
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I'm not a born again Christian...
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quote 2:
I'm sorry. I am, but I fail to see much connection here with the subject matter.
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I think the original poster was trying to indicate that this was a topic for general philosophical discussion and not a religious rant against drinking.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 21 Nov 2003 1:12 pm

THANK YOU Cal! I guess the more sensitive folks tend to start defending themselves before they really take the time to fully understand the question in the topic.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 21 Nov 2003 4:53 pm

Excessive drug and alcohol consumption is irrational behavior and leads to more of the same. Don't try too hard to make sense out of it. You're not going to talk an alcoholic sober.

I do enjoy a cold brew now and then. And boy, I sure do love those drinkin' songs. I'm glad I am able to enjoy them in song rather than in life.

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HagFan

Nate LaPointe · Post by **Nate LaPointe** » 21 Nov 2003 5:39 pm

Has anyone noticed that oftentimes the most talented end up drinking and doing drugs in the excess? How many "greats" have lost their lives from alcohol or heroin abuse? I'm not excusing their behavior by any means, but is this world too difficult for the genius's to handle? Do they have to numb themselves just to deal with reality?

If the answer to my last questions is "yes" then I'm in trouble! I stay relatively sober, no drugs, but I enjoy a drink or 2 at a gig. I guess I'm destined for "sideman" status the rest of my life!

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 21 Nov 2003 8:25 pm

Interesting topic Ray. I have been playing gigs since 1946, joined the AFM in 1947. I think I have been extremely fortunate over the thousands of gigs I have played in that I never played with a down and out alchoholic or drug adict on stage. Call it dumb luck or whatever. Every gig I played was with musicians who took their job seriously as musicians. This still applies today. I play with damned good jazz musicians for the most part who never drink or smoke on the job and certainly never take drugs. I guess I have been lucky.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 21 Nov 2003 9:11 pm

Hey Keoki........because you're much older and wiser too........would this tendancy to be drunk and try to play music...more of a c/w kinda thing?

Oh, I meant to say, because you're much WISER and a little older too..........

Sorry about that! Still Friends?

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 21 Nov 2003 10:20 pm

I think many musicians drink out of frustration.They are stuck in the B clubs playing for few bucks 5 days a week and not even what they want to play but what bar owner told them to play.When you spend years and years playing on the road and one day you realize that "big brake" will never come, many guys turn to the booz,I know many great players in Nashville who play down town and live of of well fare and social security checks,they spend their days drinkin` and waiting for the "big brake",but guess what,time is passing by and life goes on and that brake will never come for majority of the musicians.I think that is the reason why many musicins drink or use drugs,frustration and broken dreams that never come true.

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John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 21 Nov 2003 11:41 pm

Y'all are runnin' all the drunks off the forum.
-John

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Nov 2003 12:55 am

I like a great red wine, and a very occasional 20 year old single malt scotch, and english ales.
This isn't by any stretch pounding Buds and shots of Jack.

But I also can drink in moderation.
I prefer on stage to be comfortable, but totally in control. And to play with people in the same place, both during the set AND after.

If I am playing in an Irish bar, I might have 2 Guinesses over 4-5 hours, the second usually is a small one, if I even have it at all. I drink Guinese very slowly and don't care if it's warm.

One problem with the soft drinks in bars, you tend to drink them very fast and they are even sweeter than beers. Even if there is more sugars in a beer, it isn't drunk as quickley.
The bar water usually sucks and they frown on you bringing in your own bottles.

Now I am a bit hypoglycemic, and the excess sugars give me a boost followed by a crash. If I have too much in one blast, then I crash, because I then generate to much insulin and it over shoots.

I had a diabetic friend here recording for a week and I tried his blood sugar machine and was quite surprised at the results. I eventually got one and tested myself for a few months to see what my general intake did to my physical and mental health.

I know this and try as best as possible to control it. So naturally I also want a smooth even sugar burn in my body at gigs.

Enough sugars and you have energy and good brain processing, to much and you start to fluctuate between manic and depresssed. Not enough and your slow mentally and physically.

Now I sure see this as having an effect on musicianship.

The stuff besides water to drink at gigs is totally sugar based, but thirst is thirst.

I think this effect to greater and lesser extents contributes to many alchoholic musicians becoming drunks. When the crash comes, pound more sugars. I.E. have another drink.

I know about it and control it. I can have 2 small red wines over several hours, and never much more. I always want to have my head with me, and level.

I have done gigs with pothead bands, and raving drunks and prefer the former hands down.
Mellow beats irrational ever time.

But the straight bands who, at worst, drink with very controled moderation are best.
Not absolutists ; do as I don't or get lost etc.
Relaxed, friendly, in control and good players. Like my current band.

There are several fine players here I can't and won't play with because they are either
mean at the end of the night, or just misunderstand simple statements.

Want to be up till 5 am, for the free drinks and bla bla bla, when the gig was over at 1.
and then get mean after 3 am.

or once every 3 months get totally out of control.

I can keep myself under control and I am too old to deal with this late night crap,
but I love playing and in front of people, so you play where you can.
But not with just anybody who is brilliant for 1st and 2nd set, but a loose cannon for 3rd set.

No alcohol is fine and VERY correct for some people, they should NEVER drink.
For others red wine is healthy and not a hindrance to life. Cuts down on free radicals and processes body waste like heart plaque.

But playing "drunk" on stage is idiotic, and people who do should be avoided.

I could care less if some nimrod is insulted because I don't want a shot on him. I just say thanks but I have to play now, I'm at work.

If he doesn't understand this, they why should I care if he is insulted? Not my type of person.

I have accepted a drink from a fan, when I wanted one, and only what I wanted, and it usually lasted for quite a long time.

Stage fashion is fad and style marketing and has nothing to do with drunkeness.
Some are marketing to a countercultre audience. If everyone was in suits and ties, it would be a boring world.
~But just being a grub ain't good either.

Walter Stettner · Post by **Walter Stettner** » 22 Nov 2003 1:09 am

In my opinion, it is very simple:
If you drink on stage, you are not a professional, no matter how long you did the job. It weakens your senses, your reaction, makes you look bad (probably not in the eyes of some people in the audience who had their share!)
Honestly answer this question: Would you trust a doctor who is drinking while he examines you? Would you trust a car mechanic who drinks while he works on your car?

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George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 22 Nov 2003 5:42 am

I have never drank, and have only been in a few bands that had a member or two that did. 100% of the time, it created problems. If a club owner or patron offers you a drink, I think the professional thing to do is simply say "I don't drink on the job, but would be happy to join you after the show" or something to that effect. People has to respect you for that. Of all the drinkers I have know in my life, I don't know one that it has done them any good. If a guy wants to drink, it's his life and none of my business, unless he gets into an automobile to drive or gets on stage with me.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 22 Nov 2003 5:58 am

I only drink to excess.....

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 22 Nov 2003 7:41 am

I guess the more sensitive folks tend to start defending themselves

Ray, I wasn't defending myself. I was expressing sympathy for your professed non belief. However, the way you set up the article you clearly imply that "born again Christians" or bible thumping zealots" are the defacto standard bearers against the "sin of alcohol". This is a broad characterization which does have some basis of truth, though is not an entirely accurate statement.

If you wish to ask the original question without any religous connotation, then your rather lengthy disavowal of theological bias should not have been included in your opening declaration.

That really was my point.... Not being sensitive, just honest.

God Bless Our Day,
Steve

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 22 Nov 2003 8:03 am

The only thing alcohol mixes good with, is water. bob

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 22 Nov 2003 8:58 am

WEll Steve......I guess my attempt at an honest disclaimer backfired in my face and for all of you that I have offended in one way or another with this post, I most sincerely apologize. When the subject of booze and drunks comes up, one is often criticized as being some kind of a Holy Roller this or that.
I was merely trying to set the stage for my QUESTION. I didn't want a heated debate but some thoughtful conversation about the topic. I recently had a band stand experience that motivated me to go with this post. The red faced, bleery eyed band leader hollared loud enough for all to hear, "Quit tuning that darn thing, you can't play on it anyway!" then comes on with this warm, loveable smile, like wasn't I just the cutest feller with that remark?
I don't drink, simply because I have chosen not to. I've never ridiculed anyone for having a drink. I do hate it though when a drunken band leader or other band member openly critizes you and/or your best efforts based on their own fuzzed over sense reality. It's not uncommon to see these same drunks.....while behind the open mike, start to insult members of the audience. WOW! A real no-no, in my opinion.
When offered a drink, even while but a teenager and I politely declined, I was often made the butt of some "drinkers" joke by way of a LOUD, "Oh, you too good to drink with real men?".
I've found most of the responses here to be valuable contributions toward different people's responses to my question. Only a few have actually disappointed me and fewer yet, were actually anticipated.
Again, to those whom I"ve offended, I offer my sincere apologies.

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 22 Nov 2003 9:01 am

Walter Stettner asked:
"Honestly answer this question: Would you trust a doctor who is drinking while he examines you? Would you trust a car mechanic who drinks while he works on your car?"

Certainly not, but let's not mix apples and oranges here. My life is not threatened by a bass player having a couple drinks (unless I get in a car with him after he's had too many).

Don't compare musicians on the job with doctors on the job. A more appropriate question would be, would you trust a bartender who's been drinking to serve you?

And for me, the answer is...yes. [This message was edited by Chris Walke on 22 November 2003 at 09:05 AM.]

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 22 Nov 2003 10:14 am

Hey Ray...I didn't mean to sound pompus, (or however that word is spelled). I just stated a fact that I was spared the drunks, dope heads, et al for which. I am grateful. As for age, you are not far behind me. Of course we're still friends...why not ?

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 22 Nov 2003 10:48 am

When I was with a "touring" band I was affectionally nicknamed "Doctor Jones", because I knew the band members, and who was into substance abuse. I also knew how much they could handle before they disintegrated, and I intervened when it was obvious that they were approaching their limits.

Because they trusted me, they abided by my admonitions, and the band leader trusted me to have everyone on-stage when it was time to work. It was more effective than if I had approached it in an accusatory manner.
www.genejones.com

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 22 Nov 2003 10:57 am

Ray... You certainly didn't insult me or anyone else that I can see. I personally am just discussing it. I have no problem here at all. A forum is by definition a place for open exchange of ideas. Near as I can tell, that is exactly what is going on here.

As I expressly stated, I have no problem with someone who has a cold one now or then.
I do believe that alcohol has no place on the bandstand and contributes nothing to a players chops except sloppiness. This is a well documented physiological fact and is not open for debate... I've heard many times that "Just a couple of beers really loosens me up". Yes... it does relax your inhibitions, but even two beers has a deleterious effect on reflexes. Anyone who argues otherwise is simply mistaken.

.... I know... I know. There are tons of folks who imbibe a beer or three on the bandstand and sound just fine. Well guess what? They'd sound better straight.

Thanks for the thread Ray...

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 22 Nov 2003 1:17 pm

Actually without "naming names" I can interject three things.

One. Worse than falling down drunks are those that do and then The ONE Day they "swear off" the come to work and have the attitude that everybody owes them a debt of gratitude that they aren't hammered.

Two. Working with people in "withdrawal" is sometimes worse to the point where being a 24 year total abstainer, I find myself sneaking them a couple double shots to "get the snakes away"...

Three. A case where it's gone BEYOND quitting a band to "help keep the poor person out of clubs" to not add to their drinking themselves to death, and moves into playing with them and promoting the band at every opportunity to hasten the "world being shut of them".

People are so durable and endure so much self destruction, that it's beyond my belief.

I still am overwhelmed about the spaces I put my own gentle spirit in more than a quarter century ago..

That's all from me at this point.

Lots of good responses.

EJL

So it goes..

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Nov 2003 2:45 pm

I don't have any problem with musicians drinking on bar gigs. I can't drink anymore for medical reasons, but I would if I could. It was a lot of fun. I have no regrets about those years when I got hammered on the bandstand every weekend.

I refuse to take a moral stand against drinking. I don't know the date when I quit or how many days/years I have been sober. I've learned how to have fun without drinking, but I'd be lying if I said that I don't miss it. This is wine country, and sometimes it's hard to play winery gigs without tasting the merchandise.

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David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Nov 2003 2:53 pm

I can't equate playing a set on stage with being a doctor or a mechanic to whom you must trust your life and passangers lives with.

Nobodies life will be ruined, least of all mine, if I hit a clam in a solo. It happens to everyone, drunk or sober, from Yacha Heifitz to Dolly Parton.

Just so it's clear I don't drink scotch on stage or anything like that. I almost never touch it in a bar on my own time with someone else driving. I like a great single malt about 3 times a month or less, and it lasts a long time at home. I don't drink very much at home or out.

My present gig is semi-pro and I make no bones about it. It may get bigger, it may not, but it is working more and more.
No one is tea total in the group, but at 47 I am one of the youngsters. Everyone acts like adults, fun adults, but still adults. Our comportment on stage is pro in the eyes of the pros who have seen us.

We do it because we love doing it. It is relaxed and friendly and sounds increasingly solid each time.

Maybe it's the french culture, but they are more worried about cigarettes on stage than a glass of red wine.

If I was in a pro touring show and it was a dry act I have no problem what so ever doing that too. Not a drop. But I also wouldn't realy want to do that kind of act on upright bass.

I agree that I might have better reflexes with out a drop at all. No doubt. But with my arthritis I would also not be likely to play as freely throught the pain if I was stone cold...

Improvising jazz on upright bass is pretty deadly on the fingers, and I often am a bit inhibited to go for that extra note my head says to play.
Even that said I don't use booze as a crutch to play hot.
It isn't a replacement for adrenalin.

I never drink anything on classical gigs at all.
Nor on a cold sight reading gig, like playing at ISGC this fall.

I also very much doubt I would have even that one stout if I was playing steel on a gig.
I really suspect steelers are by far the most sober guys in any band, on or off stage.

The legal limit for driving here is MUCH lower than the USA also.

I can really appreciate Doctor Gene's attitude from the old days. But I also know neither of us wants to go back to that kind of gig.

Oh and I never drink when running or playing a session in the studio, or anything else stronger than Ibuprophen. And I actively discourage others from that. It's a non starter.

So if one or two of you want to say I am un-professional, please do it after you have seen me play.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 November 2003 at 03:04 PM.]

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 22 Nov 2003 6:28 pm

From what I am gathering from the above comments, most folks are not really too bothered by drinking in MODERATION. If conduct starts to deteriorate, so does the bands' toleration of said offender. Most folks like to loosen up a little and kick up their heels some. The problem comes when that becomes the rule instead of the exception. Things tend to start getting pretty weird then. Drinking turns into a handicap. Bummer

Walter Stettner · Post by **Walter Stettner** » 23 Nov 2003 12:53 pm

Interesting...apples and oranges, mmh.

Of course a bass player who drinks doesn't ruin anybody's life, but I don't think that this bass player is taking his job serious enough to do a real professional job! If I'm going on stage I want to have control over what I'm doing and I also would like others to see me as a professional. I know from my own experience, there's occasions where you are constantly asked to have a drink with somebody, for some audiences it doesn't really matter if you had some drinks or not, but I had some of the worst gigs of my life with musicians who had too much. Probably the audeince didn't notice, BUT I DID!

Maybe the example with the doctor and the mechanic was way too off, but has anybody ever seen a classical musician drinking on stage? Or an actor, a dancer in a musical, an opera singer?

Just a little information about myself: I'm 42 and never drink alcohol, but not for religious reasons, I simply don't like it. I have no objections against alcohol, I'm definitely not a person to kill a party with my raised finger...

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