DRUNKEN MUSICIANS in the public eye

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 20 Nov 2003 11:17 am

I'm not a born again Christian......nor a Bible thumping religious zelot.......and my relationship with a church leaves a lot to be desired. My former wife informed me I was a "Mr Hollywood" in my mind and a no-talent in reality. Perhaps, she was right.

This topic is "offered" however, not as a religious attack on the sins of booze or those that choose to imbibe or whatever.
It's just a question.....musician to musician: WHY DO SO MANY FOLKS...who strive to become "a musician" feel it is necessary to drag themselves and all other musicians and music, as a profession, into the cesspool of Hell......?
I've been required to play with worthless drunks, a lot of my playing life; their out of tune instruments; their horrible volume levels; unkempt appearance; inappropriate words/statements at the mike; ugly glares at fellow musicians; attitudes that simply suck;
and in general, just about every characteristic that destroys a potentially great working group and/or any meaningful following.
We've witnessed it in a lot of younger rockers and heavy metal "stars". They have all the trappings of "Mr Evil"; long hair; horrid facial make-up; costumes to shock the dead; 100,000watts of ear busting volume; screaming noise making "instruments?", the destruction of wonderful musical instruments on stage; destruction of hotel rooms; and, destroyed lives...........blaming of course, drugs and alcohol. So many of these guys weren't even worthy enough to have carried Chet Atkins' guitar case, or Chalkers, or Wests', or Jerry Byrd's to name but a very few.
What ever happened to the really, truly great MUSICIANS? The folks that were an honor to know, fun to be with, and an inspiration to you and your own playing? I'm finding it harder to find any of these folks.
Where did they all go? They can't all be dead, or can they?
I can recall sitting in with a new group, back in the olden days, and when the lead guitarist strummed his first chord, for affect, YOU just knew it was going to be a great, wonderful and exciting musical evening. YOU strived to learn every little thing you heard so you could better understand and appreciate it. WHen the group played, it was an EVENT; a HAPPENING!
When someone suggested you might toss this into the mix, it was a positive suggestion that often help to make the Band's sound, a better one. Today, that could get your head busted, nose broken or the band kicked out of the establishment.
Was it just lazines on the part of a few; too lazy to take serious lessons and instead replaced talent with LOUDNESS and a lack of talent with bravado?
I'm just a low-talent; no talent old man that has a few more moments each day, to just ponder questions like this. But how I long to hear "fun groups" like the Portland Area's "BUCKLES"! It's just plain fun to go and hear them. You leave the place with good feelings and sounds in your ears, kinda like leaving a fine restaurant with the succulent taste of a great steak still lingering in your mouth an on your taste buds.
Has "symbalism instead of substance" truly become the new generations' life style?

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 20 Nov 2003 11:31 am

Alcohol....I lost my kids, my wife, my job my house, and my self esteem.

But I'm gonna give it another chance!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 20 Nov 2003 12:08 pm

Hmm... I don't have a "case".... But thanks...

Anyhow. I quit drinking 24 years ago on Aug6. I found that I was "allergic to it. No crises. No Interventions, no DUIs, just called up AA. I was luckily spared the urge to ever drink again, though other parts of my life took years to heal. Haven't felt like I "needed a meeting" in over 12 years, but I'd go again iff'n I did. I found that I could wreck cars, (two) shoot people (one) and tell people off ( hundreds) and do it all much more effectively without being hammered.

Others' results may vary.

Even at the "height" of my drinking, I couldn't find myself able to drink while I played in public. It was just embarassing to try to navigate the banjo playing "Reuben", or Cripple Creek. I'm just too self-concious I guess.

I don't notice others' drinking unless they fall on my guitar or off the stage. I've had 'em do it though (and then fire me for noticing..)

I don't know why people do the things they do. I gave that up years ago. you have to put yourself in "their mindset", and I choose not to.

I recall one of your examples complimenting me on my "self control". I busted out laughing and reminded "him/her" that the reason I don't drink is because I have very little..

No comments from the .....

People do all kinds of things. That's for sure..

I love the Proverbs' quote, paraphrase "(all this horrible stuff happened).... yet will I seek it again."

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 20 November 2003 at 12:10 PM.]

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 20 Nov 2003 12:49 pm

Hmmmmmm....steak. DOH! Yes, the days of real talent and respect on a stage are(almost) gone. The true Hall of Famers ARE either dead or retired, save for very few. There are still sterling examples as well as younger/up and comers that are exceptions to this, and I hope they prevail in the long run. But look at the scum that reap all the awards at these all too 'important' farcical award shows. Kid Krock, oh yeah! And drugs and alchohal have always played their pro/con parts in music. Due to a lot of reasons, it's usually been on the side of con. Honor and civility between musicians is pretty much history, as it is in general society. Those that can't control themselves, or at least be decent, should be escorted off the stage, and/or out the door. Who want's to play with, or be around a punk? If prison culture is the popular norm on the streets, how can you expect much else from younger, even musical, minds who care more about being accepted by their unworthy peers. Selfcenteredness and bad attitudes seem to be what counts today. It's not often that you can have a 'religious' experience thru music anymore, whether it's as a player or a listener. The give and take between musicians has been replaced by all take from so called musicians. These days, you have to be extremely selective where, and with whom, you chose to enjoy music. While it's still possible to have a fun time, the window is closing faster with each generation. So, enjoy what you can, while you still can. For most of us, it takes a lot of time and effort to develope talent. But the recording industry and club owners don't care about talent, just money. And if there are enuf dummies who just wanna shake their booty and provide the $ to grease the slide(and sadly, there are), then expect it to get a lot worse before it ever starts to gets better. I expect real music to completely disappear in my lifetime, as I rarely find it these days. I was hoping it was just that way in my neck of the woods, but it sounds more and more like it's prevalent thruout the country. Just another sign of the times, so get your kicks while you still can. It ain't all gone, as I hear lots of encouraging news from friends that get out and participate on stages across the USA, so not all is lost. Hang in there, and be it Jazz, Blue Grass, Swing, Classical/SOB, Country/Western or ?, just, "don't forget to Boogie!"

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 20 Nov 2003 1:20 pm

The majority of the work I did over
forty-plus years was in bars.
I found that if I drank with the customers, they loved me, but if I didn't, I had to play twice as good.
Also, if I did't drink with the band,
they thought I was snubbing them.
I don't drink or anything these days.
I also don't get much work any more.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 20 Nov 2003 1:39 pm

In the 80's, I had a gig that I had to drive 1-1/2 hours each way to get to (Hayward to Modesto on hwy 132 for those who know the area) and I had to do it 5 nights a week. I made the decision not to drink at all at the gig just because of the danger of the drive home. The leader of the band (he was also the club owner) used to chastise me for not drinking saying that the customers expected it of me.

I have played in bands that we chose not to drink on stage. More professional in my opinion. After all, you don't see people in a department store or medical offices drinking at work.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 20 Nov 2003 1:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What ever happened to the really, truly great MUSICIANS? The folks that were an honor to know, fun to be with, and an inspiration to you and your own playing? I'm finding it harder to find any of these folks.
Where did they all go? They can't all be dead, or can they?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope

I was with about 45-50 that were sober as you have ever seen and They were playing great music and having fun doing it in Saluda SC last weekend.

I quit Drinking almost 13 years ago, not because of music, but something more important. I am a single parent and I did it to be a better parent, but it also had a positive on my music.

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<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_7_3.gif' border=0></a><a target='_blank' href='http://www.mymailsignature.com'>
<img src='http://www.mymailsignature.com/fwpdata/ ... CFAsig.png' border=0></a>[This message was edited by John Floyd on 21 November 2003 at 09:05 AM.]

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 20 Nov 2003 1:57 pm

Boy, this is a real hot topic with me but a touchy one with my musician friends, many who get hammered at the gig and each night in between. I choose not to drink on the bandstand for obvious reasons, and am in a band with a recently reformed alcoholic is teetering on the edge of the wagon.

Alcohol has destroyed the lives of family and friends, and I'm just plain sick of it. All drinking does anymore is make me tired. The older the drunk the more pathetic they get.

OK I'm done.

Drew

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www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 20 Nov 2003 2:29 pm

I think alot of people cling hopelessly to false memories of some mythical Olden Time when everyone was better than they are now.
Without trying to sort out just what the broken-record-rant-of-the-day is (Drunkeness ? Long Hair? Shabby clothes? Volume ?) I'll just take the chance that the title of this thread is the intended topic.
So, as a member of that know-nothing generation of persons under 40, I ask: Who would you suggest we look to for that squeaky-clean image of sobriety that apparently has been sullied and lost by us young whippersnappers? Hank Williams? Lefty Frizell maybe?
Sheesh.....
-John

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 20 Nov 2003 3:25 pm

For Ray (and all): My musical career goes "way back," however, I can honestly say that I cannot count 5 alchies I've known in my career. Most of the musicians I've worked with and who have worked for me have been serious enough to know that drugs and booze don't equal better playing; it's all in the mind of those who are simple enough to think that they sound better. They need to record themselves under both conditions. The "Stars" I've known have been somewhat different in that they wanted fame/fortune, etc, but when it came, they simply could not handle it. I'm not bashing alcoholics; many people are vulnerable, especially if their physiological makeup reflects tetrahydroisoquinilin, but it is a fallacy to think performance is enhanced by mood-altering chemicals. HJ

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 20 Nov 2003 3:28 pm

And who can forget Dee-Doodle Duck..

There's a saying, "You've got to get down to get up", and I think lots of "top name" people have pushed it right to the limit.

There IS a lot to be said for performing writing, and living "on the edge".

You'll hear again and again the "top people" railing against even pure "drug use" and to hear first hand accounts as the reminicences of top name band mambers on THE radio show you'll find that most of, if not just "a lot of them" were hammering down black beauties, west coast turnarounds, and more than likely yellow jackets to be able to crash long before us 50 year olds were out of our diapers, washing them all down with whatever they could find.

In my case stone cold sober, I found that taking "diet pills" for a couple summers of nonstop driving/county fairs only burned me out faster and I made mistakes a mile a second.

Then there's Donnie Young...

I think, to steer this back to the source, what Ray's talking about is frustration with bush league and midrange bands that go out and totally drink themselves ( or whatever,though I've noticed that alcohol is the worst next to probably mainlined heroin without making it a "speedball") into an obvious state of "Foster Brooks ism", and then can't figure out why they can't get people to hire or play with them.

Tell you what. About ten years ago, I felt a lot of pressure to "look like I was having fun". I took to having the bartender put either root beer in bourbon or shot glasses, or apple cider in beer mugs. I didn't do it very long before I noticed that nobody really seemed to notice.

THEN, years ago when my "non drinking" came up with a couple of "long time fans" the one lady told me that back then about that time, i was "hammered all the time", just from that brief period when I would 'fake it". I find that overall, it's not worth it even to "fake it".

I seem to remember several times when the best of them would put a gin and tonic on their headstock and play.

I do think that the "atmosphere" has changed a lot, and in most cases, for the better.

And yes, a lot of them are dead. A lot of them drank themselves to death.

So we're right back where we started I guess.

Sure glad I quit those 24 years ago. It's allowed me to exhibit my true lack of self control with minimal consequences..

EJL

Wayne Brown · Post by **Wayne Brown** » 20 Nov 2003 4:00 pm

i have found over my extencive time as a former rock and now country player that a lot of musicians drink or do drugs as way to be accepted,or there exessive compolsives and as a front man and a band leader...i have found a way to handle this ...if you drink on stage..."your fired"...if you show up to a show or get drunk at a show "your fired"...if you do drugs anywhere around where were playing or come to the show stoned "your fired"...this may seam a little harsh...but...it's my name on the line...i booked the gigs...the bar owners know me not the other musicians ...it's my band name that's out there and i don't want that to be known as that kind of a band...i'm also out front... when someone is drunk on stage ...who gets nailed ...me ...not them...now don't get me wrong i have a drink at the job but i don't need or want the music to suffer because someone is drunk or stoned...some people just need to show some restraint as this is a job and a place of work...and you are being paid to work ...not drink...and on a personal note if a musician who i am about to hire says one of these 2 lines he will be down the road before he's even hired
1)..i play better drunk or stoned
my answer ...then your not very good are you and i don't need you in my show
2)...well if i can't have fun then i don't want to be in your band
my answer...if you need drugs or drinks to have fun on stage i don't want your kind in my show either
and suprisingly because of this when ever i put on a show i do not have any shortage of musicians wanting to do that show...and we all have one heck of a good time

as you can tell this is a huge sore spot with me
as i said before i don't go out and hump all the gear to the gig and set up just to be humiliated by some drunken idiot behind me

thanks for letting me vent
wayne[This message was edited by Wayne Brown on 20 November 2003 at 04:05 PM.]

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 20 Nov 2003 4:22 pm

In the mid-70's I played with an amazing drummer. He had marvelous hands and feet, played a double bass set, handled bebop and Latin rhythms, as well as anything else he wanted. There were times I had to look over there and make sure there weren't 3 or 4 percussionists sitting behind the set- he sounded like a whole section... and he was like a clock.

But he drank beer on the gigs. He would set up and have a beer. He had another beer or two at every break (he was a little guy).

Here's how a typical 4-hour gig went: The first set was good. The second set was GREAT. The third set was inconsistent. The fourth set sounded like hell (sorry, there's just no other way to say it). There were nights I wasn't sure he was going to be able to get himself home.

The last I heard, he couldn't get a gig.

This (and similar experiences) did away with any desire I might have had to drink, so drinking on the job is a moot point.

Rick

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Rick McDuffie
Marlen SD-10, Sho-Bud Professional S-10, Paul Reed Smith McCarty, Hofner New President, Fernandes LE2G
Rick's Music Photo Gallery
www.tarheelmusic.com

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Nov 2003 4:43 pm

I won't rant about the sloopy and torn clothes, or the 115 decibel musicians, I've done that before.

Truth is, it used to be very "fashionable". Drinking was a social thing, and most people did it. Unfortunately, like most things both enjoyable and harmful, it got out of hand. Then the pendulum swung hard in the other direction. Nowadays, drinking is like smoking, and those who partake are usually looked down upon by others. My own philosphy is a little more liberal..."Anything in moderation, and nothing to excess.", in the words of Ben Franklin. I'll readily admit the roads are a little safer today than they used to be, but the social gatherings (except for an occasional steel show) are far fewer. The comraderie that musicians used to enjoy is, for the most part, gone. Instead of getting together and having a good time, and drinking a beer or two, we just sit at home and play a little, or listen to recorded memories of how it used to be. And if we're lucky, we have a computer to help pass the time.

Yup, things are sure different now...but is the music any better? You'll all have to make your own decisions about that.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 20 Nov 2003 4:54 pm

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 09:09 PM.]

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 20 Nov 2003 5:14 pm

I think Willie sums it up when he says that he put down the whiskey and the cigarettes when he started smokin' reefer. I want to play in his band!

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<img align=left src="http://home.att.net/~michael.holland.2000/images/littleboogie.jpg" border="0">

Ernest Cawby · Post by **Ernest Cawby** » 20 Nov 2003 6:37 pm

We are having a show in Quitman Ga. No smoking, no drinking. Every Friday night we have about 100 people from 5:00 till 11:00, we eat at 7:30, line dance, square dance, slow dance and have a great time, no confusion, or trouble. If some one wants to take over one of the different groups that swap out durring the night he is ask to leave and don't come back. Each groupe plays for 1 hour each.
I am 73 Sat. and have been plauying since 15, never drank or wanted to, you just don't have to do it.
Social pressure does not bother me.

my 2 cnts

ernie

Tom Stolaski · Post by **Tom Stolaski** » 20 Nov 2003 7:00 pm

From 1993 to 2000 I quit drinking. After one month of not drinking, the piano player told me I was playing better. He was wondering if I was practicing my steel guitar lately.....

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 20 Nov 2003 8:14 pm

I think playing in a bar is condusive to drinking. That's what everyone is there for, to drink and have fun. It's easy in the beginning to get caught up in that atmosphere, especially when people buy rounds for the band now and then.

After a while it becomes have one before the band starts to, "get loose".

If you are like a lot of musicians who early on worked 5 days a week, but loved music so much you played 5 nights as well, you find yourself toward the end of week so tired from lack of sleep when you get to the gig that a little pick-me-up from the bar wakes your body up and you can do the gig ok, if you can maintain that alertness, which of course requires a little imbibing during the evening.

Because the booze makes you feel better and more alert and more friendly, the level of intake increases over the years.

Sometimes, for some folks, the ratio changes and while sub-liminal, the reason for the gig is not so much for playing music as it is for the booze. "I can play this job, but I need to be in that sweet state so I can do my best and feel comfortable, and be great in my own mind", yet not seeing how much less of a musician or person you have become.

That is a sad end to the high hopes of some musicians and to promote booze or drugs to sell an image or an album is an injustice of the worst kind.

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 21 Nov 2003 8:58 am

What really bugs me is that when you play with drunks, they tend to ruin everything at the most inopportune times, usually meaning real important gigs. You work for months putting an act together, only to have everything flushed down the toilet, because of arguing on stage, excessive volume, sloppy playing. That's the reason that I don't play in a band anymore. I like my hard work to pay off in the end.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 21 Nov 2003 9:17 am

I see it this way:
If you see music as your profession, or you try to do your job as professional as possible, you don't drink.In no profession

Johan

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 21 Nov 2003 9:48 am

Hi all! Thanx all for your specific insite.
I was just curious WHY some "musicians" will rush into a situation and destroy not only their own opportunities to excel at something they love but they slop their problem over onto so many other individuals who don't really deserve to have the periferral damage ruin their love for music.
Like many of you, I've had the occasion numerous times, to play with individuals whose talent exceeded my own by light years.
Yet, they are dead at age 44 and some later than that.
Music for me has proven to be more of a giant, never-ending frustration than a happy reward, directly proportional to the effort invested in it. Just learning the guitar with its many unforeseen challenges was one thing but, finding worthwhile, talented musicians is another, then to discover that quite often the really great ones have this serious problem that adversely affects not only their own playing but that of each member therein and the band overall.
This post was not intended to pick on the hapless and willing drunks around us, but rather an effort to determine if any of you had encountered many of the same obstacles that I have. A lifetime of never-ending study and training, the best in equipment, financial sacrifices and all, only to have it all dashed because of some selfish, self-centered, uncaring individual that always puts his/her desires and ambitions ahead of everyone elses with no conscience whatsoever. Thanks for your help in this research project.
All too many younger people today, wanting to be musicians with the BIG BUCKS and Glory that go along with it.......tend to project so many of the "bad elements" we've each been plagued with during past decades rather than the truly desireable traits like so many before US.......that started with raw talent, dedication and long hours of hard work.

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 21 Nov 2003 10:01 am

I'm not a born again Christian...

I'm sorry. I am, but I fail to see much connection here with the subject matter. I don't drink. Not because I'm a Christian but because it is such a waste of a life. I don't begrudge anyone that occasional "cold one" or glass of wine with dinner. Drinking or using drugs that impact on your ability to communicate your musical ideas is beyond ignorant. Using any substance to the degree that it destroys or harms yourself or family members is just incredibly sad. I know that there are forum members who feel that some drug use is perfectly ok, in particular marijuana. I personally could care less what they do as an individual to themselves...but, and this is the really big but... That behavior impacts on society, especially younger folks. For that reason alone I feel much harsher penalties for sales should be enabled.

Now... I've digressed a tad, but I do have a point. Excessive alcohol consumption in public is very similar to illicit drug use in my mind. Both behaviors have a detrimental effect on our younger population.

There is simply no excuse for either behavior... and it has nothing to do with being a "born again Christian". I think it has more to do with having some common sense.

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 21 Nov 2003 10:24 am

I've spent many years getting pretty hammered at gigs. I look back now and wonder how I made it home some of those nights. I never fell into an addiction, and as I got older, I just got a little wiser and a little more concerned for those who love me.

But there's no reason to demonize having a drink at the gig. Some bands have there rules, and that's fine, and very respectable when everyone agrees. Me, I like to have a beer before the first set, maybe one somewhere in the middle of the evening, and MAYBE one after the show (I'm speaking of a 3-4 hour gig). This separates each beer by at least an hour, so I never really have more than one drink in my system. Just enough to loosen me up a bit. I've played plenty of gigs completely sober. I don't necessarily miss the drink.

I've played in bands with people who became alcoholics before my eyes. It's a sad thing, and it's embarrassing as they fall deeper into their sickness. But this is not something that is about today's musicians only. That's an unfair claim. I've worked with several older players (I'm in my 30's) that have been just as bad as any of these young guys Ray's ranting about. Musicians of all ages, races, musical styles can fall/have fallen into alcholism or drug abuse.

I agree with John Steele and ask you to take off the pearly glasses of nostalgia. For every sober and talented musician of yesteryear, there was a drunken mess ruining someone's gig.

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Just read Ray's clarification. As to why musician's drink, I think it's just the environment they play in. When everybody in the place is drinking and having a good time, why shouldn't they? Yes, they have a job to do, but they aren't playing the Ryman, they are playing Jim's Tap. Their friends are there, people are buying them shots and beers, it's all a party. Eventually, they get tired of it, grow out of it, or get in trouble. Or all 3. [This message was edited by Chris Walke on 21 November 2003 at 10:30 AM.]

Tony Chavez · Post by **Tony Chavez** » 21 Nov 2003 10:56 am

Thank you Chris,My words exactly.I have a shot and a beer before the 1st set to take the edge off and relax,not to get plowed.Some of you guys think too much.Most of the time everybody in the bar,club,taveren is too messed up to pay attention to what your playing anyway.Have a drink on me.Tony