Reverb a component of tone?

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 11 Jun 2005 6:32 am

Whenever I'm hanging out with my fellow steeler Hale Akaka, we always end up in a guitar shop trying out amps we can't afford. Sometimes we just pau gig so there is a steel guitar in the trunk that we can use to test out the amps.

I notice when Hale testdrives an amp, he dials in all his settings which includes the amount of reverb. I, on the other hand, always test amps out with the reverb at zero. (Reverb is so often abused by Hawaiian steel players that I have grown to hate it. I instinctively shut the damn thing off when I play.)

Even if I did play with reverb, I feel having it dialed to zero gives me the most honest representation of the amp's tone. Am I right in believing this?
Or is reverb a component of tone?[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 11 June 2005 at 07:32 AM.]

John Dahms · Post by **John Dahms** » 11 Jun 2005 6:47 am

There is no doubt that the interaction of frequencies against frequencies produces other frequencies which comprise the end resulting tone. You know what you like, use your ears and don't worry about if your test criteria is valid. It's valid to you. If you don't use reverb, turn it off, if you use a ton, put on a ton. Buying an amp based on some availability that you won't ever use is not buying what you need.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 11 Jun 2005 6:53 am

A couple of comments---I often see reviews of some high end boutique amps that mention that they sound so good and three dimensional (a rather difficult to describe sonic attribute that I only sometimes think I understand) that they sound like they have reverb even when they don't and therefore they don't need it. This often relates to the sonic properties of really well designed resonant cabinets but not always.

I do consider reverb an essential part of my 'standard' tone and I don't know if I could relate the test results of an amp, dry, with whatever real world standard I am using as a baseline. In other words, my baseline for comparisons does have reverb so meaningful comparisons must have it too.

This is only me and my way. No question, reverb is a powerful color and it does mask a lot.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 11 Jun 2005 7:12 am

I always use a little dash of salt on my eggs and a little dash of reverb with my steel.

Erv

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 11 Jun 2005 7:17 am

I agreew/you Jeff. Too much reverb and/or delay is yuck.( Japanese word from Hiroshima Ken meaning !@#$*^(.) I use reverb and/delay to compensate for acoustics. Playing in a carpeted, draped, restaurant dead as hell is only one example. In the old days we did not have reverb or delay and somehow we made it through, ie: Dick McIntyre, Iona, Kelii, Joaquin, Wiggins, etc. CC

Todd Weger · Post by **Todd Weger** » 11 Jun 2005 7:31 am

Reverb is so often abused by Hawaiian steel players that I have grown to hate it. I instinctively shut the damn thing off when I play.

I think reverb and volume pedal use are both way overused. When I started playing, I used both (too much, too). After meeting Dick Sanft (who uses neither) about 3 years ago, I changed my way of thinking on that. Dick does it all with a bar, steel and his hands. His thought is that the steel guitar has enough sustain that reverb isn't needed, and that it just muddies everything up. He also told me that volume pedal covers up all the subtle nuances of touch, attack, etc.

There are a few times when I want that reverb, but for effect only. I did a track to a friend's tune called "Limahuli" where he recorded his vocal and uke with a TON of reverb. It didn't match up right for me to not use it, so in this case, it was complementary to the track.

But normally, I don't use it either.

TJW

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 11 Jun 2005 8:05 am

Reverb has absolutly NOTHING to do with sustain, no idea why one would think that. And i have found that more people use reverb, then don't!.. i could not imagine any of todays digital recordings done without it, to some degree or other. However with that being said. Today's digital units, are crystal pristine..unlike the spring units put into amps...The world "Best" steel guitar players use Lexicon, or Digitech, or Roland "Digital Delays"..they actually can work to ones advantage. I "PERSONALLY" find a straight amp signal "Dry" "Lifeless" ...just like the salt example..a "GOOD" digital reverb, can add life, sparkle, i think the old Fender amps might have been alittle muddy at times, but i personally love a little reverb, and on slow songs ALSO add, a little delay...[This message was edited by George Redmon on 11 June 2005 at 09:07 AM.]

Brandin · Post by **Brandin** » 11 Jun 2005 9:03 am

I think I'll stop using reverb, and I'll be
takin' the wax off my surfboard too.

GB

Dave Mayes · Post by **Dave Mayes** » 11 Jun 2005 9:36 am

I've never met a reverb I liked.

Jan Hess · Post by **Jan Hess** » 11 Jun 2005 9:39 am

Hi Jeff,Everyone: I will go along with Jeff, and play the amp dry then work my way thru the additional colorings I use in my Soundhounding!

Erv is bang on with the salt analogy.Music is the best Smorgasbord there is;You can eat as much as you want & not gain weight(unless of course you sit/practice a lot?

)It's also great for the soul! CC has a good point on the acoustics.I say use the spice when necessary,but obviously you don't want to spoil a good stew.

...Like they say.."ToTaste". I agree with George about that "Sparkle",orlike Erv said "Salt.."When it comes to music.."If it's cooked properly,I'll eat almost anything!"

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<pre>Soundhound</pre>[This message was edited by Jan Hess on 11 June 2005 at 10:43 AM.][This message was edited by Jan Hess on 11 June 2005 at 10:45 AM.]

Ron Simpson · Post by **Ron Simpson** » 11 Jun 2005 10:07 am

Great topic. If memory serves, the first commercially available electric guitar (Rickenbacker frypan)came onto the market in 1931, and the first appearance of reverberation was in the mid to late 1950's (Gibson, Danelectro et all). I must therefore conclude that most, or all of the great music we love from that twenty five year +/- time period was made without reverb, at least on the bandstands. I have no idea what might have been available in the recording studios of the day, or might have been re-mastered at a later date. I agree that the question of reverb being a component of tone is up to the person playing the steel guitar at the moment. I salute the players who use a dry signal to recreate a bygone sound. All too often, the room itself will dictate the use of the effect.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 11 Jun 2005 10:08 am

There's a time and place (and space) for everything. For me, using reverb and delay is about creating illusions of space and room, which I find important in the music I play. Then, when a completely dry sound jumps out of the mix and hits you between the eyes, the contrast is so much more effective..

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 11 June 2005 at 11:08 AM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 11 Jun 2005 10:40 am

I always turn the reverb off ... and don't use delay, etc.

I'm after a very specific "sound" ... and reverb/delay smears my vibrato ...

I don't "salt" my food either ...

... but I do use copious amounts of hot sauce ...

If salt is analogous to reverb ...

Habanero's are analogous to vibrato ...

As usual just my opinion

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Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 11 Jun 2005 12:30 pm

To my way of thinking, playing an electric instrument is already an artifical construct so why not color the sound in as many ways as your taste dictates? The best effects, IMHO, kind of imply a hyper-reality for a naturaly occuring phenomena. Reverb electronically reproduces an ambient performing space based on the natural laws of the world. something like flanging is electronic by nature and to me, inherently less desireable. But why limit yourself with hard and fast rigid rules? Each situation and blend of instruments or voices may present a different challenge. In some musical genres, reverb is not only necessary, it's essential. What would surf music be without that damped, Fender reverb tank sound? Duane Eddy's watertank reverb? Harry Belafonte's "I'm in an empty silo singing Day-O" sound? Don't toss that wax yet, Gary![This message was edited by Andy Volk on 11 June 2005 at 01:36 PM.]

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 11 Jun 2005 7:52 pm

I like just a light touch of reverb, but I dont like the spring reverb in my big Fender amp. I use a Zoom reverb pedal on the setting it has when it's turned on, just a whisper of the effect.[This message was edited by Bill Creller on 11 June 2005 at 08:52 PM.]

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 11 Jun 2005 8:23 pm

Another component of that early tone, i.e. Sol Hoopii, was overdrive. Most of the amps out then were very low power, so most of the recordings featured the player cranking out the amp to be heard. The Sol Hoopii box set has TONS of overdrive on some passages. No solid state there...

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MSA Classic 12, Peavey Delta Blues, Proco Rat, Robert Randolph - Shubb bars

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 11 Jun 2005 8:48 pm

Not wishing to point fingers, but I have noticed the majority of steelers in Holland (and Europe generally), seem to favor reverb to the extreme. Personally, I like reverb in small doses. I must confess years ago I too, abused reverb however I now try to use it sparingly. One only has to listen to the beautiful sounds of the old tymers like Dick McIntire, Andy Iona, et al, who never had the "benefit" of reverb units to truly appreciate how nice a non-reverb steel guitar can be.

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 11 Jun 2005 9:49 pm

Back to Jeff's original idea, I believe that in some amps, reverb alters the tone contour of the amp. Especially in the fender black face circuits, the reverb circuit was eq'd with a little more treble, so in those amps it actually changes the eq of the amp as you bring it in. I used to do that as a kid on my Princeton Reverb just to get more treble out of it.
( I can't imagine doing that with a princeton reverb now - ouch.Maybe that's where the top 4khz of my hearing went...)

But I also agree with the other folks that you should set it up how you will play it, if you want to see what it's like. You can always try the amp with and without to see what the particular amp does with reverb.
I add a little dash when playing live to make me sit just a little farther back in the mix, but there are some songs where that sound is inappropriate. (Most of the time I belong in the mix with my fader on 0...)
Can you imagine Don Helms' sound drenched in reverb? Can you imagine the wonderful Vanduras album without it?
[This message was edited by Paul Arntson on 11 June 2005 at 10:51 PM.]

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 12 Jun 2005 1:11 am

To pick up on Ron's comment on there being no reverb on the classic pre-50s recordings.
Well, your ears will tell you that is not quite true. What is true is that there is no artificial reverb. The simple recording styles of the pre Les Paul era meant that microphones were much further away from the amp than would be normal today. The result is a much greater amount of natural room reverb finding its way onto the recording.
Even a small studio will have a reverb time of half a second or more, and that is enough to fillout the sound in the same way that artificial reverb does.
Just last week, looking for a classic sound, we recorded a Piano (grand) with two mics under the lid, and the third, AKG414, three metres away in the corner. The mix of the three gave a sound that included a beautiful natural reverb.

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Cheers!
Dave

Dan Sawyer · Post by **Dan Sawyer** » 12 Jun 2005 12:03 pm

I'm with Jeff. When i try out an amp, the first thing i do is turn off the 'verb. It's difficult to really hear the amp's tone when the effects are on. On the gig, however, i do like to use a little reverb or delay.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 12 Jun 2005 1:29 pm

I play through a Webb 6-14E. I bring the reverb up slowly, until I can tell there is reverb. This happens to be 2&1/2 on the 0-10 scale.

I hate that heavy reverb sound.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 12 Jun 2005 3:55 pm

Reverb is that electroacoustical effect used to hide flubs. Works for me...

And lots of delay, lots and lots of delay...[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 12 June 2005 at 04:56 PM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 12 Jun 2005 4:32 pm

And of course, delay has this nasty habit of also repeating the mistakes.......

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Chuck Fisher · Post by **Chuck Fisher** » 13 Jun 2005 12:37 am

I like delay, a bit of reverb, slow delays with appropriate timing especially. Tubes melting down like Chernobyl is also a good thing.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 13 Jun 2005 3:13 am

Steiner, as Jerry Byrd told me, Dwight Harris, Scotty, and several others in a motel room in Winchester IN, "If you make a mistake the first time around, make that same mistake the second time around and no one will know the difference".Jerry was quite a philosofer. And he could spell better than me also. CC