Pedal Steel on the Rock Block

Mike Marchelya · Post by **Mike Marchelya** » 10 Apr 2003 9:56 pm

"It's all country music. One country or another." - Willie Dixon

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 11 Apr 2003 4:12 am

are you sure it wasn't "Carl"?...

Post by **Joey Ace** » 11 Apr 2003 4:21 am

Or Jean?

Back to the subject, I applaud Robert and others that are taking Steel to new areas.

I know several non-traditional Steelers, and have never heard one put down traditional styles. I don't see why some of us have to put them down.

I've even seen it at the ISGC when PF played. There are some that think the ISGC is a "Country Show", and don't want to hear anything else.

I don't like the stero-type our instrument has fallen into. It's not good for our future.

Mike Marchelya · Post by **Mike Marchelya** » 11 Apr 2003 7:46 am

Howard, you got me there!

When I mention that I've taken up pedal steel, I typically get one of three responses:

" A WHAT?"

"I didn't know you were into country music."

or

"Have you heard that Robert Randolph guy?"

The steel may "catch on" and it may not. Any of us waiting for a whole new audience to embrace the steel and start learning a traditional approach is probably in for a long wait.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Apr 2003 8:40 am

Has anyone ever thought how wierd it is to have steel guitar conventions? I never heard of a regular guitar convention, or a sax convention. Also, if you did hear of a guitar or sax convention, what type of music would you expect? You wouldn't have a clue. But at a steel guitar convention you know it's gonna be mostly country with some Western swing and Hawaiian.

This is not a criticism, but it illustrates the strange situation our instrument is in. It was invented very recently to play a certain type of music, and so is much more strongly identified with that type of music than any other Western or European instrument is with a single type of music. It is similar to the situation with traditional instruments like sitars, bagpipes and the various Asian string instruments.

Along these same lines of thought, it may be that the E9 neck will never break out of country, and the C6 neck will never break out of Western Swing. The Sacred Steelers had to invent a different neck to play their music. That's kind of a unique problem in the world of instruments. People play any kind of music on piano or regular guitar. This may be one reason the steel guitar has been slow to be taken up by musicians in other genres. It gets back to what b0b was doing with a diatonic tuned pedal steel. Maybe the definitive universal pedal steel copedent that musicians in other genres can use hasn't been determined yet and it's holding the instrument back.

As for RR, he probably doesn't have a good idea about the [white] "steel guitar community" and steel conventions. Why would he? He's lived his whole young life in a completely different world. Just breaking into the rock and club scene was a big move for him that his church elders have been against. The conventions the Sacred Steelers have traditionally played have been their religious national and regional meetings. They have thousands in attendence, and the steelers are big stars there and get paid in the thousands, just like the preachers.

And, yes, Robert plays rock and blues guitar licks on his steel. What's the problem? People play all that stuff and country and Western on regular guitar and no one complains. The rock and blues licks sound a little different on steel, and people love that. This is great!

As for Jim Cohen, those who live West of the Mississippi may not realize it, but he has been passionate and worked hard to bring Western Swing to the Philly region, where it never had a popular base and was little known. And if you listen to his Finally There CD you will here lots of innovative non-country or swing stuff.

I'm just a bumbling amateur. I started out playing country on E9. Now I try to play blues, cool and avant guard jazz, and classical music on my S12U, but I can feel the limitations. Truly chromatic stuff and accidentals are not always easy to get, especially while trying to hold a particular chord or play a bass line. Classical music pre-Stravinsky comes a little easier, but you have to really avoid the A and B pedal glisses to keep the country out of it. Not being able to site-read classical music is a real limitation. And the really fast classical stuff seems impossible on the instrument (things like Beethoven piano sonatos and concertos, or Chopin). After Stravinsky, forget it. And avant guard jazz like Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman, no way. But steel is such a great sounding instrument, I hope it doesn't die off before it really gets going good in all the other genres.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 11 Apr 2003 10:29 am

Dave,
I disagree with some of your assumtions about the tunings on a pedalsteel. A sax can only play one note at a time and manages fine. Plus a typical D10 can handle most anything a standard guitar can play. A steel can handle many tightly voiced chords that are impossible on guitar.

An oboe can play Stravinsky no problem. There is no reason why a steel can't play it unless you are trying to play the whole concerto by yourself.

In my opinion the problem is not with the E9 or C6 tunings. Its more about learning your tunings and then playing whatever you want on them.

Robert Randolph just might have a much deeper understanding of the standard steel guitar scene than 99% of us forum guys. He counts some of the best steel players that ever lived as fans and personal friends. If you guys had any idea of who Robert has been hanging out with in our steel guitar scene you would drop the "Robert just doesn't know..." thing. The man is very smart and VERY talented.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 11 April 2003 at 11:30 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Apr 2003 11:16 am

Bob, I agree a steel can play stuff no other instrument can, that's why we love it. But try ripping up and down a two octave chromatic scale the way any horn can. Try ripping up and down scales and playing any inversion of any chord all at the same time, and in any key, the way a piano can. There are things written into some kinds of music you just can't get on our present steel tunings. Yes, you can get the twang thang (and C6 swing jazz type licks, or Hawaiian licks) better on steel than on anything else (and I love all that stuff), but maybe it's slowing the movement of steel into other genres, and that type of limitation to certain genres is sort of unique to steel. I'm not necessarily criticizing this - it's just that it presents a challenge.

Robert Randolph and his buddies had to invent a new neck to take steel into their genre. It puzzles me to hear him criticized for only using two pedals. Nobody ever criticizes Jerry Byrd for that. The Sacred Steelers mostly play multi-string lap steel with occassional pedal use. It's somewhere between no-pedals and 8 x 8 pedal steel. What's wrong with that? I think what the Sacred Steelers have done is great, and I guess we have to expect more new type necks to be invented as the steel moves into different genres. But it bothers me a little to think I might not be able to get far in those genres without investing in more guitars and necks. The multiple neck problem is coming back around.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 11 Apr 2003 11:20 am

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 11 Apr 2003 11:40 am

Robert's tuning is essentially Chuck Campbell's tuning with the addition of a way low G# string. This tuning isn't a whole lot different from a standard or extended E9th. And there are Sacred Steel players who use a standard E9th. The main thing that the Sacred Steel tuning adds is more options in terms of rhythm playing. Most of Robert's single note playing could be done using either E9th or C6th. I use a modified Sacred Steel tuning based on one suggested by b0b, and it was amazing how few changes were necessary to get a SS like tuning from a standard E9th.

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www.tyack.com

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 11 Apr 2003 5:36 pm

Just got back from the Sierra shop where Robert was picking up a new axe (A Sierra 14 string Session Series set up with Roberts 13 string tuning).
Got to see him rip it up hard and FAST from about 2 feet away for about 30 min or so!
I gave him a ride from Sierra back to The Crystal Ballroom and he gave me a few right hand speed picking technique tips along the way!
We got there just in time for his sound check. He's got a new Mesa head with a 4-12" cabinet and a Session 500.
Tone and a half!
Show report to follow tomorrow.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Apr 2003 8:48 am

Dan, what is your modified b0b modified Sacred Steel tuning?

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 12 Apr 2003 9:26 am

Well, the place was near capacity (1000) with folks jumpin' up and down like crazy! (the Crystal Ballroom has a spring loaded dance floor).
Robert was slayin' 'em!

He played pretty much everything off his Live at The Wetlands CD, plus several others I hadn't heard him do before, including some Hendrix tunes (Purple Haze and VooDoo Child, a Stevie Wonder tune (instrumental version of Isn't She Lovely), Yakity Sax (uh, Yakity "Steel" that is!), The Hip Shake (with about 10 babes on stage "Doin' the Hip Shake"!), and a few others I didn't recognize.

It was a 3 band lineup, and I timed it pretty close, arriving at the Crystal at the last song of act 2.
Robert and the band took the stage just after 11pm and played for about 2 hours with no break.
Cool!

By far though, for me, the best part of the day was watching and listening to Robert play some incredibly fast, accurate, and intricate, single note solos, and wild cyncapated chordal/rhythmic type steel, over at the Sierra shop.

He is really playing Pedal Steel at a Stevie Ray Vaughn level of intensity and virtuosity, not to mention audience captivation.
I would love to see him on stage with the likes of the greastest blues players of our time, like Clapton and that crowd.
He'll blow them away on PSG!...(that twangy thang!)

He also said he will be having a new studio alblum coming out soon!

Just one more thing...
I think it would be a disasterous mismatch to have Robert Randolph and The Family Band play at the ISGC.
They should definatly try to get Chuck Campbell and some Sacred Steelers though!

I've got a local gig tonight, and The Derailers tomorrow night!
Fun Stuff!

Joe Goldmark · Post by **Joe Goldmark** » 12 Apr 2003 9:29 am

I have some comments on the original thread.
There are numerous reasons why RR's price was what it was. For one, the managers are probably making those decisions for him, he could have been scheduled to play the day before or after, thousands of miles away, he very well might not realize the esteem of playing Scotty's convention and might come around to appreciating it next year or in 10 years. He's a young guy from a sheltered background who's had a ton of recent success heaped on him, and we don't know half of the pressures and responsibilities that come with that. I'm sure he's responsible for paying his band and crew, management, bookers, not to mention travel and rooms. It's incredibly expensive to keep a top act on the road as he seems to be doing. The good news for us is that he does seem to be on the road a lot and we have a chance to see him. Our only shot at seeing Buddy or Lloyd live, is at Scotty's.

Another comment. It's interesting to me that in spite of his growing popularity, I don't see or hear young kids saying they want to play that instrument that RR plays. I work in a record store, and so far it seems like he gets lumped in with the jam band crowd of yuppies and Deadheads, and they don't seem to be rushing out and buying steels.

Anyway, let me go on record as saying he's a monster picker and a breath of fresh air in the steel world. We used to jokingly say, "when is the Jimi Hendrix of the steel guitar coming along?" I don't want to cast aspersions on RR, but he is that guy.
Joe

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Apr 2003 10:09 am

David, my chart here shows how I put E9th on the top strings and SS on the low strings. Dan Tyack applied the same principle to his E9th, which has the knee levers in different places from mine.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 12 Apr 2003 11:24 am

Well said, Joe...

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 12 Apr 2003 11:54 am

It's interesting to me that in spite of his growing popularity, I don't see or hear young kids saying they want to play that instrument that RR plays

Well, here in Philadelphia (the original home of sacred steel), I've had several new students approach me about taking up "that instrument that Robert Randolph plays". I'm always a little reluctant to give them lessons, because I don't play that style and don't really plan to make the investment of time right now to try to get into it, but I do take them on to get them started with basic technique, etc. Bottom line, though, is that, at least here in Philly, RR is indeed stimulating some new players.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 12 Apr 2003 8:40 pm

My tuning is really due to the original idea from b0b (who is really amazing on analyzing this copedent stuff), plus sitting down looking at b0b's idea with Chuck Cambell, the guy who really introduced the pedal steel to the Sacred Steel community. The Sacred Steel copedent may well be divine inspiration, but there is no doubt that Chuck was the vessal of that inspiration. The main difference between my tuning and Chuck's is that it was important for me to keep to a 10 string copedent and keep the top 6 strings vanilla E9th. So Chuck has a minor 7th in the top end and also a low low B (the B below the low E on a guitar). I don't miss the high D string, but dearly miss the low low B.

One of the things you can do with the Sacred Steel tuning is play killer classic rock and roll rhythm parts. Or any rhythm parts for that matter.

My copedent is available on my web site (check out the link below).

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www.tyack.com

Neil Lang · Post by **Neil Lang** » 13 Apr 2003 5:11 am

$10K..........Outragious for sure, HOWEVER, I DO think it takes MUCH MORE TALENT to play a STEELGUITAR and play it WELL, than it does to SWING A BASEBALL BAT or THE LIKES OF! The Country is going to $$H$$$$$$$$$$$$E$$$$$$$$$L$$$$$L$ in a handbasket! ????????????????????????
Neil

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 13 Apr 2003 9:20 am

I have not a clue who Robert Randolf is. I have never knowingly heard him play a single note. And from what I perceive, I don't believe I will be hearing him any time soon. Cuz I do not care for the type of music he plays. For those that love that stuff, more power to ya

I know this, IF he is worth 10K to play at a steel guitar convention, Buddy Emmons or Paul Franklin, et al, is worth a 100K! And I do NOT believe I am exagerating.

And I stand on that!! But people are rarely paid on how much they are worth. Any body who has ever spent a career designing or installing or repairing anything that "salesmen" sell, will be the FIRST to tell you that there will always be a gross injustice and disparity between what the "workers" receive and what the ones who supposedly bring in the check receive.

This is truly never been more true than in the field of music.

Oh well, Thand God; in heaven we won't have these injustices,

carl

Dennis Olearchik · Post by **Dennis Olearchik** » 13 Apr 2003 10:08 am

If you haven't already done so, check out Robert playing the new Harmos PSG (you'll need to scroll down to the middle of the page once it loads).
http://www.harmosmusic.com/news.htm

If Sage can put a MIDI pick-up on it and someone in the PSG community can program a guitar synth unit (like a Roland), you could change tunings (E9th, C6th, SS, etc.) by simply pressing a button or foot pedal (for those familiar w/Joni Mitchell, she gets 20 to 30 different guitar tunings out of an electric Parker guitar w/a midi pick-up. The guitar physically stays in standard guitar tuning but gets the various tunigs from being connected to a customized guitar synth).

In the future, you may only need a single neck 12-fret psg as not only could you change tunings on the fly but you could also activate different "octaves" in the same way (as many octaves as a piano?). At least that's what my Star-Trek Secret Decoder Ring has predicted

[This message was edited by Dennis Olearchik on 13 April 2003 at 08:45 PM.]

Dennis Olearchik · Post by **Dennis Olearchik** » 13 Apr 2003 10:10 am

...[This message was edited by Dennis Olearchik on 13 April 2003 at 12:33 PM.]