How many PSG players can play non peddle too?

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I have been getting into Leon McAuliffe's E13 tuning lately on non pedal and noticed it was kinda close to PSG E9 tuning. Did many of you PSG players start out on non pedal C6 and E13? If so, do you think this is the way to go?

Chris Forbes · From: Beltsville, MD, USA

That is the way many of the "giants" started. Then they moved over to pedals when they first came around. Day, Emmons, Green, the list goes on and on. I, on the other hand, did it the other way around and play both with equal mediocrity!!!!

[This message was edited by Chris Forbes on 05 April 2003 at 03:31 AM.]

[This message was edited by Chris Forbes on 09 April 2003 at 10:18 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

'Tis true that today many start right out on pedals and would be somewhat uncomfortable trying to play a non-pedal.

But for us older coots, we all started on non-pedal guitars. And I agree, most of the greats started on non pedals. While there had been pedals of whatever vintage, it was not until Bud Isaacs did his thing that our chosen instrument changed forever.

The PSG is now an evolved and unique instrument. The non pedal was somewhat unigue, but NOTHING like a PSG. Sadly, because its origin was country and much of its built-in sound is country, it is relegated to that stereotype. I am not convinced it will ever break that shackle. But I hope it will.

I wouldn't take anything for starting out on non-pedals. Because having to slant the bar to get every (non open tuning) chord just makes pedals that much more exciting and relevant.

The greatest non-pedal steel guitar player, JB was able to do what few others on earth could do. So in his case the non-pedal said it all. Still does for him. But for most of the rest of us, the non-pedal is just too limited and we of course "had" to have that sound.

But it is great to be able to pick up a non pedal steel once in a while, and let it bring back many memories and oh soooo much nostalgia.

Thank God for Joseph Kekuku (or whoever invented it). It has been a joyous ride since that fateful day.

And God bless all of you,

carl

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I thought non-pedal's origin was more in Hawaiian music than country...but non pedal-steel has also been pretty big in the pop-rock genre too, remember David Lindley's lapsteel playing with Jackson Brown....the lapsteel solo in "Running on Empty" for example. I started on lapsteel too, playing Hawaiian standards and Hank Williams songs like "Cold, Cold Heart". It's a good foundation for moving to pedal steel.

Ulf Edlund · From: Umeå, Sweden

I started on slide guitar, went on to dobro, a 1936 Gibson EH-100 and a homemade 8-string that i used to imitate pedal steel. The EH-100 is a bit worn and fragile so i don't gig with it nowadays, but it sounds just GREAT.
Later i was offered a job as pedal steeler in a band who's steeler was quiting.
I knew nothing about pedal steel but i borrowed his PSG, an old Howard 2p-2k, bought it, and i've been an addict eversince.

-Uffe

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"I thought non-pedal's origin was more in Hawaiian music than country"

That is true. But we are only talking about its origin. With the advent of including the steel guitar into country music in the 40's and 50's, the "Hawaiian" stereotype gave way to the "hillbilly" stereotype and now of course it is "country" stereotyped whether it be pedal OR non pedal. Sadly I again say.

There is one exception:

Dobro style playing is a detour in all of the above. It is almost exclusively relegated to Bluegrass. Yes, there are some deviations, but most non amplified steel playing falls into the "bluegrass" stereotype.

While there are still a lot of Hawaiian stylists who play non pedal, there are more and more PSG playing Hawaiian music on PSG's. I am proud to say I am one of them.

This allows me to use a longer scale (more sustain) and get those "slant chords" without slanting; which I dearly love.

Of course there is NO substitute for the joy of playing my 37 Rick bakelite. That is the ultimate non pedal steel guitar sound IMO. Just love that sound. And believe me the sound is not ALL in the hands. Proof is there is no way MY hands can get that "Rick" sound out of my PSG.

carl

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

The non-pedal steel is making a comback of sorts in rock and blues bands.

David Lindley's work with Jackson Brown is the most famous example, but I've seen several rock bands where the guitar player doubled on non-pedal steel. I saw one band called "Bombs Away," where both guitarists did, and they had 2 stringmasters set up on stage and did a few steel guitar duets.

(A local magazine, reviewing the band, refered to the instrument as a "table slide."

)

However, the style of playing and the tunings used are based on the Mississippi Delta style of bottleneck guitar playing exemplified by such artists as Robert Johnson and Fred McDowell. They are completly different from the work of such players a Jerry Byrd or Jouquin Murphy.

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 06 April 2003 at 10:27 AM.]

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Roy Ayres · From: Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I started on resonator in 1942, finally got a 6-string Supro electric, then a National double neck, on to a Fender triple neck, and finally to pedals. I recently bought a Sierra D10 8 + 4 which I am setting up with my old tunings as I get time to work on it. I havent hooked up any pedals to the back neck yet -- so I play it strictly non-pedal. It's nice to be able to do at least a little on both pedal and non-pedal.

[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 05 April 2003 at 05:30 PM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Like many others, I started on a six string lap steel, using tunings like A6th; C#min; and E7th. It wasn't until I asked a professional player how to play DRAGGIN' the STEEL.........and he grabbed my g'tar and immediately started twisting knobs until he arrived at C6th. Been there ever since. It does all I want and I'm sure there's much, much more there to be discovered by me. I'm a real slow learner and may never know all the ins and outs.
It's kinda like driving a car with an automatic and then trying to drive a four speed. One should really start with BASICs if a true understanding of the future is to be appreciated. At least, that's how I see it from over here.
There's a long history of folks that learned to fly airplanes with a tri-gear set-up. Their first airplane purchase ultimately would be a conventional tail wheel airplane..........and then the learning would begin. Sad to say, many destroyed their airplane before they realized that BASICS are an essential part of learning. Just ask Bobbe Seymour.

Andy Alford · Posted 6 Apr 2003 7:36 am

Many started out on non-pedal but left it for the pedal steel.There are others who love both and rotate from pedal to non-pedal.They demand the best of both worlds.If you can play well on both you play where most never will.I love all the bar slants on non-pedal.The pedal steel seems almost unlimited.I will take them both.
I smile when I hear that the non-pedal is what you stop playing when you start pedals.

[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 06 April 2003 at 11:00 AM.]

[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 06 April 2003 at 11:03 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I have been playing dobro and/or lapsteel 30 years now. I just got a Sho-Bud for the power posibble with it.
I couldn't have been happy with versions of Black Orpheus and Georgia On My Mind in the 6 string non pedal versions, this weeks projects. I'm not Tom Morrell!

But, I will be playing lapsteel thursday night at our irish bar gig.
Walkin, talkin blues, irish ballads and acoustic country.
There's still a home for both types.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 April 2003 at 09:34 AM.]

David Coplin · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

You can tell almost guess the age of the responders that say they play both pedal and non-pedal steel ! Like many of the rest of of the non-pedal players, I started with lap steel then first Fender double neck and later a Fender triple neck. When the first pedal steels came out I knew had to have one. Every now and then I am tempted to get another Triple neck just for the memories.
D.C.

Joe Miraglia · From: Jamestown N.Y.

I started on the Alkire E-Harp,none pedal. Didn't have to slant bar using that tuning. Easy to change to pedals the grips 1-3-5 strings where E,B,G# 1-2-4 string E,C#,A. You could see the 1-4 cords Like A and B pedals on the E9th. The tuning had a lot of cords being a none pedal steel. Joe

George Keoki Lake · From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

I certainly have no animosity towards the pedal guitar...as Jerry has stated many times, it's a beautiful instrument in the right hands....(or words similar). In the pedal lies the secret to the elusive "lost" chord which most every 'lap' player seeks to find at one time or another. However there comes a time when you have to decide just what style of music you wish to play. If it is to be pedal with all its nuances, great! Many years ago I chose to play Hawaiian music which is not so demanding when it comes to chordal complications. Therefore the Hawaiian Steel guitar (or so-called 'lap') has been my forte' with all its limitations presenting many wonderful challenges. Besides, Hawaiian music is at its best using nahi nahi single string melodic structure. Agree Ray ?

J W Hock · From: Anderson, Texas, USA

No one has mentioned the matter of simple economics. A decent lap steel can be had for as little as $300-$500. Pedal steels are usually three times that amount. For a beginner,(a young musician or an older person on a budget) who wants to learn the basics ,isn't a non-pedal steel a wiser investment? One can always move on to pedals later.

Richard Gonzales · From: Davidson, NC USA

Now that you mention it, I was wondering if anyone else does what I do once in awhile. I remember so many songs on lap steel in E7 and C# minor tuninigs that I use my pedal steel as if it were a lap steel. The E9 gives everything the E7 does and pushing that A pedal gives a C#minor tuning.
Lots of fun to bring back the memories!

David Doggett · Posted 7 Apr 2003 7:27 am

Growing up in North Mississippi I started out playing slide guitar blues, mostly in a straight E tuning. Then I bought a raised nut and would sometimes put the guitar in my lap and play Dobro style in a GBDGBD tuning. Then a rock and country-rock band I knew wanted some steel and loaned me a 6-string lap steel to play with them occassionally. Then I ended up in Nashville and got a little Maverick E9th pedal steel (3 and 2).

Now I play an S12U. When I want that older lap steel sound I just stick to the E chord strings and play it without any pedals for a 9th and 7th sound, or hold the AB pedals down for an A6th sound, or hold the E lever for a C6th or Am sound. There's also an A modal in there. The universal has endless possibilities. But sometimes I think about getting a double with a 12u on one neck and an 8-string no-pedal neck for the simplicity and power of it.

Of course I always have a Dobro next to my pedal steel. I sometimes start a song playing the Dobro and switch to pedal steel halfway through. Start sweet and soft and build to a powerful electric climax - you can't beat that for a crowd pleaser.

Scott Houston asked about the "sound" differences between lap and pedal steel. To begin with, the pedal steel has that unmistakable twang of hitting the open strings and immediately stomping the AB pedals (or BC pedals). That is the essence of late '50s and '60s honky-tonk steel that started with Bud Isaacs and was perfected by Jimmy Day, Buddy Emmons and many others. Beyond that there are many other sounds, such as harp-like scale runs without the twang using the "chromatic strings" (1,2,7,9). Then on pedal C6 there is awesome complexity in chords or jazz scales, with or without twang.

The non-pedal sound is first of all the absence of the twang of the chord glis between I and V, V and I, and II and IV, etc. Instead there is the characteristic gliss starting with the chord a whole or half-step below the chord you end up on. That sound originated on steel and was so influential that it was copied on other instruments and in orchestration throughout the '20s - '40s in Hawaiian, swing, jazz and pop.

Interestingly, in a lot of the old recordings from those years there is a blend of Hawaiian and blues sounds, and Hawaiian and hill-billy sounds. Brother Oswald is a great example of this on Dobro, then Josh Graves took the Dobro into the typical bluegrass sound we are use to today. African-Americans fairly quickly left the Hawaiian sounds behind and gave us the Delta (Son House) and Chicago (Elmore James) slide-guitar blues sounds. Two lesser known incredible lap steel blues players were The Black Ace (out of East Texas) on a National square-neck tricone, and L.C. "Good-Rockin'" Robinson (out of L.A.) on a fender single neck 6-string lap steel (also blues fiddle). But a lot of earlier black steelers and sliders had strong Hawaiian sounds, and the older Sacred Steelers also had (and still have) some of that.

So much music to hear and play

, so little time.

------------------
Student of the Steel, and cheap instrument connoisseur: customized 1970 Sho-Bud Maverick, Fessy S12U, Emmons S12 E9 P/P, Nashville 400, Fender Squire, Peavey Transtube Supreme into JBL 15", 1968 Gibson J50, '60s Kay arch-top, 7-string Raybro, customized Korean Regal square-neck, roundneck Dobro 90C, 1938 Conn Chu Berry tenor sax, '50s Berg mouthpiece, Hamilton upright piano. You make it, I'll play it (more or less)

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

My first guitar was an old $5.00 acoustic with a "crack" in the back, a .25 cent steel nut over the bridge, and a Gene Autey song book. I practiced by playing along with the Ernest Tubb show on our old battery powered radio back in about 1944.

Damn....I can't be that old!

P.S. Jesse....Leon did a "Single" on our show once and he played my Fender triple Custom rather than carry his in....because he said mine was tuned like his.

It should have been.....I tuned it from listening to his records! www.genejones.com

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 07 April 2003 at 08:57 AM.]

John Cox · From: Texas, USA

Non ped is great!I took two years off pedal
to play non-pedal and learn where some of the
primitive licks that I should of learned first. Needless to say when I hit the bandstand things got intresting.

George Keoki Lake · From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

I feel there is a distinct difference in tonal sound of the pedal vs the non-pedal. It is my opinion the Hawaiians share this feeling also as very few if any, play pedal "Hawaiian" in Hawai'i. Both instruments have their own distinct beauty in tone. Billy Hew Len briefly tackled pedals, but soon went back to the "lap" for many reasons, not the least of which was the convenience of packing around a light weight instrument with little set-up involved. Pedals certainly provide a full rich sound in jazz, c/w, et al. Beautiful big chords, great sound...no argument there. Someone on this topic mentioned the sweet simplistic sound of the "lap" and therein lies the difference. Hard to describe, but nevertheless, it's there.

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Jesse,

To answer your question "do you think this is the way to go?" I say yes.

I had a choice when I started out. I choose non-pedal cause I wanted to connect to that old sound. IT was like a puzzle to me and I wanted to solve it. I admire those who can make wonderful music with a simple instrument.

I still like to do non-pedal moves on my U12. Sometimes it is just easier. Now, I also love the power of the pedals for chords I cannot get to NP.

I am glad I chose nonpedal to start. This opened up resonator playing, bluegrass, Hawaiian, blues.

It all transfers over to the psg.

Hope this helps the thread.

------------------
Stringmaster T8, Benoit 8, National Tricone

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I think if the body resonates nicely a PSG can sound great.
It does have a larger metal mass compared to the lapsteel without a changer.
This must dampen some of the body resonances.

What I notice most is the sameness of the sounds from PSGs, not that different players and steels don't show great differences in sound.

I atribute that to the standardization of tuning,
almost exclusively E9 / C6.

The non peddlers use a whole raft of tunings.
I am thinking of going that route with my E9 neck eventually, since the Sho-Bud can easily be re configured.
i.e. pick a cool tuning and get used to it, then start changing pedals and levers to get the most out of it.
I might lose a pile of "nashville licks" but who knows what can be gained.
Extended Sol Hooppi 4+5...

Yes I know there is a tried and true logic to the E9 as commonlly played and there are many different copedents for it, but it's still E9.
I can always go back to it if I want.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 08 April 2003 at 01:26 PM.]

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Now matter how you doctor it up, non-pedal is the "Daddy" of Steel Guitar! 54yrs. of non-pedal, and 50yrs. of psg. "Big John" http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Andy Alford · Posted 9 Apr 2003 3:43 am

David

The clone sound of the PSG is the players lack of ability not the guitar.Though the PSG is unlimited,often players all sound the same. If we could go beyond the norm of playing just like the next person we might start sounding pleasing.Clones are created by a lack of ability and desire to step out of the restricted norm.Also as you know many can only play runs and fills just like the next person.I realize that if you do not have an ear for music that is a major problem, but who wants to be be a clone.New players might learn from listening to many of the older recordings that use to come out of Nashville.THey did not sound like clones on a steel.

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