Improvising or preparing?

Sigi Meissner · Post by **Sigi Meissner** » 24 Mar 2003 4:43 am

Altough this question is already a thousend time asked I'm curious how many of you improvise the notes you play on the gig and how many have prepared it before note by note. Of course melodic or rhythm unisono parts and certain intros and outros must be
prepared together with the lead guitarist or whoever. But do you invent new lines while playing a solo or a break or do you put licks you already know together or do you copy the music from other steelplayers one to one? Though' much harder to do and taking the risk of catching wrong notes
IPO at least 80% improvising the music is the key to reach the next level in music.

Shoe-bud LDG, Mullen D10 8&6
Greetings from Switzerland

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 24 Mar 2003 6:56 am

Improvise
If the band requires that I play licks off records, I look for another band.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 24 Mar 2003 7:08 am

If I really like what someone did on a record, I try and learn it note for note at first. I have found that as time goes on, I forget this little thing here and there and have to fill in the blanks with my own stuff. Sometime I forget the whole dang thing and have to improvise over the changes.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Mar 2003 8:51 am

Part of being a well-rounded musician is being able to improvise. Part of being a good musician is being able to play note-for-note when the need arises.

I do both...in varying degrees.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 24 Mar 2003 9:28 am

I enjoy composing a musical passage for a given song, which is then open to embellishment over time so as not to get bored with it.
A song that comes to mind at the moment is "Try Again" by Patsy Cline.

On the more jammy stuff, if anyone ever says "Take another one!", I'm prepared to "let it rip" off the cuff.
The song "Stop, Look, And Listen" comes to mind at the moment.

I just started with a new group and am learning some 40+ tunes, so I'm implementing both pre-composed parts and imporvised playing.

Most of the songs didn't have any steel on the original version, so there's not much "playing it like the record" involved.
Melody is melody none the less!

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 24 Mar 2003 9:51 am

On old standards....."swing" or whatever, I attempt to play it close to the melody of the recording to get it started. There after I have no idea what I'm going to play until I hit the note! When I'm having a good night, I will occassionally toss in a Chet Atkins or Jimmy Bryant type of "riff" just to ad some sparkle.........nursery rhymes also work good in some instances, quite like Jethro Burns would do with such perfection.
I attempt to never play the same riff or
melody line exactly the same in a single song. Same with back-up, never repeating a sound in the same place twice.
I consider it a mental challenge to have the leader turn to me and say "......whatever title".......and then be able to kick it off or play it thro' one or more times in a commercial style.
I NEVER USE PREPLANNED RIFFS tied together in a chain. A successful and unique improvision on any tune is a "high" for me.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 Mar 2003 9:57 am

I dare say that many steel guitar players improvise most of the time. However some have an inate talent that allows them NOT only to hear and play the exact melody (of almost any tune they hear); but they can also embelish that tune in some of the most beautiful ways imaginable; while retaining total semblance to the melody.

True, some of this comes from years of experience under their belts and playing all the time in bands. But the really great ones were born with it. May God continue to nurture these incredible blessings. (A talent I personally do NOT have).

Sadly, the reverse is true. Some rarely play melody. Still sadder is those that never even bother to learn melody and simply improvise EVERY note they play. I have never believed this fooled too many players or fans.

As some of the greats have said, "it takes hard work and dedication to learn the melody". So I can only believe that the best learn the melody first. Then and only then, improvise.

Of course, Jerry Byrd and Buddy Emmons come to mind in this scenario. But there indeed are others too. Praise Jesus.

carl

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 24 Mar 2003 10:06 am

Exactly like Larry Bell sez.....Want it just like the record? Buy it and listen to it.

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 24 Mar 2003 11:09 am

I don't consider myself to be a great improviser. Many years ago, I wanted to be the next Bill Evans. To that end I used to practise (the piano) anywhere from 6 to 15 hours a day 6 days a week. After several years of this I was confronted by the fact that I just didn't have "it" and that my skills were more of those of a composer.

So on almost everything I play, I like to have a pretty good idea, ahead of time, of what I'm going to play for my solo. Sometimes I'll work up something that I think is the most appropriate for that moment and I'll play it note for note (until I'm tired of it, then I'll work up something else), other times I'll just have a "possible phrases/licks" pool to draw from.

I've had this discussion a number of times with my friends from the jazz community and while I appreciate their ability to twist and embellish a phrase or melody I'm also reminded of the old adage "Spontaneity is no guarantee of profundity". I would rather concentrate on how I'm going to deliver the notes rather than "now what am I going to do". Especially if I've used up all my licks on the last solo....

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 24 Mar 2003 11:35 am

How about
Speedy West,
Julian THarpe,
SPONTANEOUS COMBUSTION!

Woody
JOhn 3:16-18

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 24 Mar 2003 11:47 am

One way I keep a song interesting is to start the solo anywhere on the neck, wherever my bar hand happens to be at the time. I also do this on lead guitar, to keep me on my toes. If the first note is out, usually a bend is all that's needed to get back on track. It also saves having to rehearse with the band.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 24 Mar 2003 12:10 pm

I like to improvise most if the time, but there are some songs with signature licks that HAVE to be played. Can you imagine doing Roy Orbison's Pretty Woman without the guitar part?

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I'm not fat! I'm horzontally enhanced!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Mar 2003 1:30 pm

Most of my improvisation is geared towards composing a part that I can play the same way every time. The part evolves through improvisation until I'm happy with it. Once it reaches that point, I try to play the same notes every time and work on the execution, tone, electronic settings, etc.

I get pretty stressed if people are watching and I don't know what I'm going to play. I'd much rather have a part worked out, and just have to worry about playing it well.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
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Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 24 Mar 2003 3:13 pm

My band's repertoire is constantly expanding with originals and cover stuff. To maintain a level of consistency I would say 65% of our material I have committed to memory, solos that makes my life easier with all fill work being executed from the cuff. If I manage to have a decent afternoon power nap, I can deviate from that level of solo confidence and play stuff that won't put me to sleep, and have fun too. BTW, I'm not a full time picker, steelin is just a hobby that happens to supplement my annual income. Anyway, on a bad night fighting exhaustion, I can get through it with stuff I have rehearsed, solos that I can play blindfolded.
I have noticed that my favorite steel players performing at steel shows, do change their attack while improvising especially the one measure that follows the head.
Now, playing in a band, playing steel shows and studio gigs are three different animals. Depending where your expertise is, improvising can be an asset or a liability. I have paid close attention to my favorite players at steel shows and most improvise without redundancy especially the first measure that follows the head. That is my most favorite area to listen to anyway, the hot measure that preps the improv.

Music is an art of expression and if you are not in the top ten and your spouse got on your nerves, I feel the advantages of preparing is an asset. At the same time it would be prudent to expand and have an excellent command in improv in case someone notable comes to listen. Last Saturday I sat in with a band that played tunes I never heard or I haven't played in years. Nothing was prepared on my part except to decanter a fine red. I had fun!
Gary Lee

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Mar 2003 3:19 pm

As an arranger I expect others, as well as myself, to do the part close to what's written, but with more feeling. Especially when other players are coming after or before on a harmonized line. Typically the 1st guy to show up records with his feel and the next ones need to lock to that.

But for their comping chords and solos I WANT their input and individualness. I want to hear somebodys 1st take on the idea, I may make comments, but usually to get them to remember or retrieve some thing they improvised earlier.

I like to record 3-5 takes for the solos and pick the best parts. Most of the time nobody has ANY preparation time, they just come in and do their best. But I always try to get their best ideas down.

Preparation for my own gigs can often be making a few variations I can then improvise from. Get around the general arrangment, and then let it just come naturally. If it doesn't I still have the basic things I worked out.

On bass I can generally just wing it with a chord chart, but lapsteel wants at least a good run through the chart a few times. PSG will be the same, but more prep work and the same amount of improve.

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 25 Mar 2003 3:32 am

Mr. Gimble, may I add that you also played wonderfully on saturday? I too had a blast, we'll have to do it again. I can even throw some more stuff at you that you've never heard!!

Dirk B · Post by **Dirk B** » 25 Mar 2003 7:02 am

There's times when both are needed. As Pete said, for sure there are times to "let it rip", like in blues or jazz.

There are other times that a composed solo, or "instrumental break" is what's needed. Look at the solo break on Del Shannon's "Runaway". Why would a soloist want to "challenge" themselves to try to improve on that and play it differently every time? It's absolutely perfect as is.
[This message was edited by Dirk B on 25 March 2003 at 07:05 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Mar 2003 7:18 am

I wanted to be the next Bill Evans.

Chas, finding someone so well versed in Bill Evans who also plays C6 is unusual to say the least. Could you please describe some of the concepts you learned from Bill Evans that you applied on C6? Not just philosophically how he played, but actual concepts of harmony, scales, improvisation, composition, that sort of thing. And most importantly, please describe how you technically applied these things on C6. I know it's a broad question, but anything you offer whould be appreciated. Thanks in advance. .. Jeff

Dirk B · Post by **Dirk B** » 25 Mar 2003 9:21 am

I agree with Jeff that this would be very interesting! But Chas, could you start it as a new thread? That way there might be more participation.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Mar 2003 2:17 pm

Jeff has asked the "big question". and I wait an answer also with great interest!

"And most importantly, please describe how you technically applied these things on C6."

Oh yes a wonderful question.
Good Luck Chas

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 25 Mar 2003 10:17 pm

Thoughts:

Very little of what you play is "spontaneous". It's almost ALL memory in one way or another.

It's a good idea to learn things like the kick off to "All My Exes" "Someday Soon", Momma Tried, The Chair, and add to the list as time goes by. You should be able to do about fifty "common ones". They don't have to be "note by note", but you should be able to play something that "the band" recognizes. You should also remember the "stock keys"

Now. That said, you should also have some other ones "ready" such as the guitar part for "Pretty Woman" so you can double it, or play it alone should the guitar player not know it or be too hammered to handle it. Also things like "Amarillo By Morning" The Fireman" "Walking After Midnight" "Crazy" Crazy Arms, and hell, there must be another fifty or a hundred that might not actually "have" a PSG intro, but you'll need to have one "ready".

Yes, as mentioned you should be able to start at any position with "something", but it will indeed be something you"memorized" at one time or another.

Here's one I try. I think of a lick I haven't used for a while, get one off the "tab section" or just one I hear on the radio. I resolve to try my best to "use it" at least once that night. Maybe even on more than one song.

Another serious one is to try every way to play a familiar lick starting on any beat or on the back or side of it. A good one is the old "bakersfield AB up and down" lick. Play it backwards, forward, and miss a beat and end up pack on the beat. You'll find that a time when your picks get tangled or your bar slips, that you'll be better able to recover.

I think often it's not a matter of "improvising", as much as "random memory". I know it's a simple thing to say, and as all other things that can be put into words I suppose is "semantics", but very little is "pure flow" unless it is a "mistake".

I think there's a saying that when you repeat a mistake, it becomes a "riff".

I repeat a lot of them unless they are a result of my tapping into "The Source".

The ones that are "Really Glaring" mistakes are perhaps my favorites. They are nearly impossible to reproduce if executed correctly.

Another one is to learn how to play "shave and a haircut" end tags just after the band ends the song, in major or minor, waltz, 4/4, 6-12/8 or other time signatures. You never know when they'll come in handy.

Also, you might try to, no matter when the band "ends" the song, to actually be *the one* that plays "the last note".

Sometimes these last two "tricks" get on bands' nerves, but don't let it bother you. Lay off for a while, and sneak it in "subtly".

My favorite in the silence after a song before the crowd starts roaring is to amplify my bar sliding down the strings, semi-muted, and hold the volume pedal down while I toss my bar between the necks for a good "clunk". Usually on the last song before break. Those are the times when 250Watts RMS really come in handy.

The possibilites are endless.

The World is Yours and All That's in It.

-Rudyard Kipling- [This message was edited by Eric West on 25 March 2003 at 10:36 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Mar 2003 7:01 am

Eric
You and I are waaaaay too much alike!
Probably a good thing we're 2,000 miles apart.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 26 Mar 2003 7:14 am

Eric- (or anyone else for that matter...) Is there a resource (or course) that you recommend for a beginner to start building my repertoire of licks and/or intros? Perhaps something to supplement regular lessons? It would be nice to have a regimen whereby I would learn a new one every day. Thanks in advance!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Mar 2003 8:06 am

Lawrence,
Clearly, the best place to get them is out of your own head. I find most of the stock stuff pretty stale (

oops . . . INCOMING! don the flak jacket). Rather than thinking in terms of licks and intros and solos and endings, think about phrases. Think of how that phrase plays over a progression. How it feels. How it makes you feel. It's a totally different mindset, much more conducive to creativity. On the one hand, there's stringing 'licks' together to create a solo; on the other, there's exploring scales (represented by pockets of notes) and migrating among positions with the emphasis on the musicality rather than the physical execution.

That said, in practice, I probably do both and they may not be as divergent and mutually exclusive as they sound.

In answer to your question about where to find these phrases that others have dreamed up that were on popular recordings, Rebel 'n' Ricky's site is excellent. Jeff Lampert also has some excellent jazz ideas on that site.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps