Why C-6? An "ego" thing? or?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 25 Oct 2002 8:36 am

As a foot-note to my 'posts' above, I'd like to take issue with this talk about the 'money neck'.

Some people contributing to this Forum do make their living playing, but the majority do not. It's irrelevant to speak of the decisions made by Curly Chalker, Lloyd Green, or any other 'pros' relating to their choice of tunings - those guys were competing for work at the highest level, and had to 'accommodate', or adapt to, the E9 tuning when it first reared its head, whether they liked it or not.

But, for the guy who plays out maybe once a week or less, or the player who never leaves the house, the discussion is redundant - if you don't find that one or other of the principal tunings does anything for you, you can ignore it. It's your choice.

By definition, I'm a 'professional steel guitarist' - that is to say, I earn my living at it. It isn't much of a 'living' (in the last forty years I've never had a brand-new car) and I probably spend fourteen or fifteen weeks of the year sitting at home (practising, Jeff, I might add!), but I'm amazed to hear guys talking of this or that being '...too much trouble..'! Someone asked, 'Why haul around a double-neck?' Well, for the joy there is in learning and improving!

Do I have a lot to learn? I've barely scratched the surface - but I'm sure I'll be a little better next week, and the week after that. Music in general, and steel guitar in particular, is my passion - I might have been a little late starting this C6 caper, but I couldn't ignore the challenge any longer.

And, if this were only my hobby, I'm convinced I'd feel the same way....

Jeff - thanks for your words of encouragement!

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Roger Rettig

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 25 Oct 2002 9:29 am

I always saw the E9 as the Nashville -neck and the C6th as the Texas neck.... Was I wrong?

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 25 Oct 2002 9:47 am

Well, for the joy there is in learning and improving!

AMEN!

Besides the swing and standards gigs that are C6 gigs (E9 licks are really out of place in those idioms), blues lays on the C6 tuning, for me, better than it does on E9. I played on an "Adult Alternative" CD that used mostly C6 and on a "Heavy Metal" CD that capitalized on the lower range of the C6. This is a very 'friendly' tuning.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 25 Oct 2002 9:57 am

I think the biggest problem is that many folks have the idea that the 6th tuning is hard to learn and play.
I think just the opposite.
Spend an hour with any of the popular C6th beginners lessons (like Jeff Newman, Buddy Emmons, ect...).
You'll be playing San Antone Rose in no time, and knowing how to get around the neck on that tune means you're just a block away from knowing about 100 Texas Swing style tunes.
If your into the heavy jazz stuff, then you're into challenging yourself musically no matter what instrument you play.
The tab is available to get you started on that also.
Why C6? (B6 in my case)... because it's fun as HELL!
(fun as "hell", get it?!

)

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 25 Oct 2002 10:30 am

Jeff Lampert's advice to Roger R. is right on target. My first pedal guitar was a single-neck,so,like many others,I pretty much learned E9 first.Then I bought a Double-Neck and learned some things on C6. But,at that point in my life, I had not yet had any formal training in theory or music,so I really didn't know what I was doing. I was just learning everything by memorization. In later years I went back to a single-neck for portability and again forgot about C6. About three years ago, I bought a D-10 just because it sounded great. I decided to really learn C6 this time. After a LOT of struggling,I finally realized it was going to take commitment. I did exactly as Jeff suggested to Roger. Even though I can't expect to equate 30 years of E9 to 3 years of concentrated C6,I am at least comfortable with C6 and can play most things on it. On a particular night,when I was struggling with C6,a spectator said to a friend of mine, "That steel player isn't as good as I had heard he was!" My friend repied,"That's O.K.,he can still fool more people than you can!"~~~W.C.~~~

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 25 Oct 2002 10:34 am

I agree, Chas - those 'blues scales' really fall under the fingers on C6!

Yes, Pete - it was Buddy's 'Basic C6th' course (from Ernie

) that got me kick-started...

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Roger Rettig

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 25 Oct 2002 12:54 pm

I play an S-11, E-9th steel. I learned on the E-9th neck. Some self taught, and a lot
Jeff Newman taught. I really love the E-9th sound. All the flowing and crying notes, plus the fast speed picking notes, still give me great pleasure to play. But,when I opened the door to playing B-6th, a whole new world came alive.There are so many places in E-9th tunes, where you can interject the B-6th (C-6th) sound.By doing so, it adds to diversity and expands your playing skills.You have actually doubled the versatility of your steel. It can't be used all the time, because it tends to change the flavor of the particulat tune. I just find it a great way to enhance one's playing ability, and add a new approach to playing the tune.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Oct 2002 2:27 pm

Far more often than not, if a player gets past the initial difficulty of adjusting to the C6 tuning, they become a convert. Fundamentally, steel players love playing harmony (chord inversions, instrumentals, etc.etc.). It's a common musical mindset that almost all of us share. The reason why players, after the initial adjustment, love playing C6, is that there is a greater variety of interesting harmonies, and they are easier and more intuitive to locate. Bascially, the C6 tuning is an extension of our common love of musical harmony. It doesn't mean that you have to play C6 to have a great love of harmony. Just that, lovers of interesting harmony will usually find C6 more satisfying than E9 if they choose to explore it. And that is why it is so perfect for playing harmonically interesting genres such as the blues and jazz, where you need to have the flexibility to break out of the bounds of typical major scale harmony. The piano is the instrument that is at the core of popular music instrumentation. The C6 tuning is the one place where you can replace the essence of what a pianist playing and harmonizing a song would do. I don't believe there is another popular instrument that can do that. That is a powerful point. All IMO, of course.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Oct 2002 4:34 pm

Silly...isn't it?

"E9th is easier"

"C6th has more chordal possibilities"

"Triads are grouped better in E9th"

"Jazz and blues scales are easier on C6th"

It's kinda like arguing..."Which is better, Ford or Chevy?" The real truth is that both tunings have equal possibilities, no matter what style you're playing. Both tunings have potential that remains untapped...virtually limitless.

Before the advent of pedals, I might have agreed that one tuning had the advantage when it came to playing a particular style. But...disadvantages? When you've got all those extra moves, chords, and harmonies that the pedals give? That's a cop-out!

No my friends, there are no longer "limitations" with any tuning. The real, and most profound limitations are in you...the players! If you can't do something, it's your fault...not the tunings'.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Oct 2002 10:46 pm

C6 has opened up some very big doors for me in NYC. Its a great tuning with some nice tonal options.The C neck has been paying my bills these days also. I've been having 2 to 3 gigs a week were it has been almost the only neck I play.

Bob

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Oct 2002 6:35 am

It rather feels as though Donny's slapped us on the hands for having this silly discussion!

Yes, the limitations are in us players, but bear in mind, Donny, that some of us (me, for one) have started C6 relatively late; of COURSE some things appear at first to be easier than others to 'get' - no doubt as my perception of the tuning increases, I'll see this differently.

With due respect, I think it's superfluous for you to point out how far most of us have to go; I'm only too aware of my limitations, 'though I'll always enjoy the 'journey'....

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Roger Rettig

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 28 Oct 2002 8:33 am

The real truth is that both tunings have equal possibilities, no matter what style you're playing.

Donny, I don't mean to be argumentative for arguments sake, but I have to disagree. I've heard 'gifted ' players who could play just about anything on anything and I'm not one of them. I watched Red Rhodes play country and standards on his diatonic tuning, I watched Joaquin play "E9" phrases on the A-7/A dom7 with a high B in the bass tuning, so it's possible, but given the facility of most of the rest of us, the layout and standard changes on E9 lend themselves more to the triads and diadic scale passages that are the signature E9 sounds. For me, the C6 tuning lays out the major and minor 7th and 9th chords and diminished chords in a more orderly and logical pattern.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Oct 2002 9:01 am

Sometimes it's hard to avoid the pedal steel stereotype sound on the E9th. If the music you're playing isn't country, the E9th will almost automatically "countrify" it, for better or for worse.

If you know your way around on C6th, it can get you out of that stereotyping. I've been listening to a lot of what they call "smooth jazz" lately. It doesn't really swing or use tons of far out chords, but the melodies and improvisations lay really well on the back neck. I have a hard time imagining this music on E9th. One AB pedal lick and the mood would be lost.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 28 Oct 2002 9:17 am

.....I am trying hard to understand this post....anyone who knows that C6 is the "real" tuning for the steel guitar, also knows that the "King James" is the real version of the bible...so I don't know why this is all so confusing?

It's not ego....it's the TRUTH!!!! www.genejones.com

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 28 Oct 2002 9:59 am

CHAS has "diadic scale"? Gosh,I'm sorry to hear that,Chas. A family member had "shingles" once. Said it was really tough! ~~W.C.~~

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 28 Oct 2002 11:35 am

Gene-- No The real tuning is A6th./E9th.and the Douay-Rheims Version of the Bible is the true version.

Joe

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Oct 2002 5:38 pm

Well I, for one, am far from equally capable on both necks. As has been mentioned...some are but most are not. The idea of a tuning being jazz or country, however, is ours, and is tinged with our own conceptions. Most would call C6th a jazz and swing tuning. Jerry Byrd might call it a Hawaiian tuning, and Chalker would just call it his "favorite" tuning...and proceed to play anything on it.

But music styles are not unlike song styles. Had Buddy done the intro and ride for "Night Life" on E9th instead of C6th, would we call it an "E9th tune"? Had he used C6th for "Way To Survive", would we now be calling it a "C6th tune"? Suppose C6th had never caught on, and all we had now was E9th? Would we not play any jazz or swing? All I'm saying is we set the paradigm, the tuning doesn't.

On a straight guitar is E-B-G-D-A-E a "rock tuning", a "country tuning", or a "classical tuning"?

Go ahead...laugh about that! But then think...their 6 notes (actually only 5 different notes) can play just about any style. On the other hand, most of you are convinced that our 10 notes (actually 5 or 6 different notes) are rather limited.

Does that make sense to you?

Food for though, anyway

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 28 Oct 2002 7:46 pm

CHAS has "diadic scale"? Gosh,I'm sorry to hear that,Chas. A family member had "shingles" once. Said it was really tough! ~~W.C.~~

Wayne, I can't tell you where I've got it,but I got a tube of Preperation 9E for the hiney and that seems to help.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 29 Oct 2002 1:58 am

Donny your last reply was very well said my friend....you are one insightful dude.
My Mentor Gary Carpenter....can play every phrase or chord or style that he plays on the C6th tuning.....On his E9th tuning also....except of course not being able to go below a B note.
So I agree with Donny in that anything can be anything.
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 29 October 2002 at 01:59 AM.]

Post by **Joey Ace** » 29 Oct 2002 6:29 am

Herb wrote:

"when I'm given more than one solo during a song, I'll frequently play the first solo on E9 and the second solo on the C neck"

For a good modern example of this refer to Paul's solos on Alan Jackson's "Waitress Song". Another is Al Brisco's arrangement of "All My Lovin".

I've also enountered some narrow-mided bandleaders that think if you don't have a double-neck you're a lesser player.

Of course we can all site examples to prove this is not true, but these blockheads wouldn't believe it anyway. Same kind of narrow-minds that want their player to stay on E9.