Avoiding the 4th degree while improvising...

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 9 Oct 2002 5:02 am

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Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 9 Oct 2002 5:03 am

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Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 9 Oct 2002 5:07 am

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Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 9 Oct 2002 5:10 am

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nick allen · Post by **nick allen** » 9 Oct 2002 5:18 am

See what going to England does for you!! and to think we're supposed to be taciturn...

Nick
(Sorry - back to the thread...)

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 9 Oct 2002 7:18 am

What happened there Bob? And you almost never repeat yourself when you're in the steel chair...

GM

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 9 Oct 2002 9:15 am

The problem I have with your concepts is that it seems like you think that there is such a thing as a right note or a wrong note.

Bob, Please point me to the exact place where I said that some note is right or wrong. I have no recollection of making such a black and white statement.

4th degree has a very obvious sense of movement to my ear. If it is relating to a diatonic tonal center it sounds like it wants to move down a half step for the sus chord to a root chord

That's exactly what I said in my previous post.

In that function the 4th degree feels like it wants to resolve up by a half step within an overall harmonic movement that is moving down.

Make sure that this is based on the idea of playing the 4th over a Maj7 chord. If the 4th is played over a moving harmony, then it may not be played against the 3rd of the major scale, which is the whole point of this theoretical discussion. For example, if in the key of C, the bass moves to a B note and the improvisation moves to an F note, then you have gone to the V chord, which would naturally allow the 4 note, since it's the b7 of the V chord. I need an example with specifics to know what you are getting at.

forbidden to use diminished scales because they are so easy.

Its the same with the 4th degree thing

Not playing something because it's "easy" is not the same as not playing something because it is theoretically not encouraged. Your mixing apples and oranges.

when it comes time to actually play music all bets are off.

Can't agree with you there. Try playing an Eb minor chord in "Tiger By The Tail" in G. The person playing it may like it, but the rest of the world will hate it. Some bets have to be on.

the guys out there that I play with or go see playing jazz in the clubs in NYC (trad, bop, avant or whatever)never worry about that stuff once the music starts.

Perhaps they know this stuff so well that it is second nature for them to apply it. .. Jeff

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 9 Oct 2002 12:59 pm

if in the key of C, the bass moves to a B note and the improvisation moves to an F note, then you have gone to the V chord

Before someone jumps all over me on this, technically, you've gone to a vii (B) diminished chord, which functions very similarly to a V7 (G7).[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 09 October 2002 at 02:01 PM.]

William Steward · Post by **William Steward** » 15 Oct 2002 11:11 am

I thought Mr. Franklin's comments about use of the 4th scale tone in modern music (let's drop the term jazz for a while shall we?)said it best. Bob H. I am glad you mentioned McCoy Tyner although he probably uses the 4th most in the context of a minor 11th, etc. than in a major. Digressing slightly but in the same vein do any of you ever use the interval of the 4th in harmonizing a melody line (that Chinese type of sound)? Bill Evans plays one version of 'Some Other Time' where he harmonizes the whole beginning of the melody using 4ths...diads. It gives it an unusual colour...I must try this on the guitar although it was probably also good advice not to try it out in the middle of tunes like Tiger By the Tail.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Oct 2002 12:47 pm

This is odd but I could swear I heard Tom Brumley using a quartal type voicing in his back up fills on the Buck Owens Live at Carnegie Hall CD. Brumley sneaks in some pretty out harmonies on that recording.

Jeff, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your posts.

Bob

Sorry about the multiple posts

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Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 15 Oct 2002 2:52 pm

Bob, no problem.

William, the 4th type harmony is used by many players, both in E9 and C6. 4th intervals are easy to get at on E9 since the bottom strings from 10 up are B,D,E,F#,G#,B. Notice that alternate pairs of strings (B,E / D,F# / E,G# / F#,B) form intervals of a 4th,3rd,3rd,4th. With pedals down, the notes are C#,D,E,F#,A,C#, with alternate strings forming intervals of b3rd,3rd,4th,4th(5th). I've heard on a number of occasions licks played using the alternating strings, forming an interesting mix of harmonies because of those intervals. On the Kenny Chesney's song "She's Got It All", Sonny Garrish (I Think it's him) plays that during the solo. On C6, practically everyone at some time of another plays a lick where you press pedal 6, and play strings 2,3,5. At the open fret, the notes from string 5 up are G,C,F, basically 4th's on top of one another. Players will play that up and down the fretboard to any chord, because the sound fits most anything.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 15 October 2002 at 03:56 PM.]

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 15 Oct 2002 8:44 pm

Personally, I LOVE quartal harmony. Listen to Lenny Breau's guitar work, that's how he gets that "dreamy" sound. May he rest in peace.

A good example of the minor 11 sound is Herbie Hancock's "Maiden Voyage" CD.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 15 Oct 2002 9:06 pm

The revolutionary thing about "Maiden Voyage" was that the tune consisted entirely of Sus4 chords.
The hanging sound and urgency to resolve is the defining nature of Sus4 chords, and the reason is the inclusion of the 4th tone.
Which brings us back to the original comment about the 4th... handle with care.
Another tune from about the same era which also uses Sus4 chords to full effect is Coltrane's "Naima", which is being discussed in another thread, complete with tab by forumite Jerry Gleason.
-John